lighting problem!

[alladinsane]

I'm hoping someone can help me with this enigma that is the lighting circuit in my daughters ex council home, the lighting and power to a centre fan and light combination is giving much trouble.. she has a two way switch that is located in the living room, one switch operates the staircase light and is working, the other operates the ceiling fan and light but neither work. In the kitchen there is another two way switch that operates the kitchen light and also powers the living room light and fan but from the other side, the kitchen light works so to does the fan and light in the living room or rather did until the wires [as seen on the right of the pic fell out] but only when the kitchen light is switched, and on so the kitchen light switch operates the kitchen light but the kitchen light has to be left switched and on for the living room light and fan to work.. Please note how short the wires in the 'kitchen light pic are so would it be in order to extend them using a choc block connector?

[Rich-Ando]

why your post was missed..sorry for that.

at a glance it just looks like the wires have come out of the L1 & L2 terminals on the left side where the wire is just in com. it won't matter which way round you connect to the L1&L2

[alladinsane]

why your post was missed..sorry for that.

at a glance it just looks like the wires have come out of the L1 & L2 terminals on the left side where the wire is just in com. it won't matter which way round you connect to the L1&L2

Thanks for the reply, will this restore the function to the switch in living room and this fan/light combination, and will it restore the function to the switch in the kitchen so it operates both ways i.e. it switches the light on in the kitchen and the other switch will operate seperately the living room light and fan.. I really do not want to take this large fan/light combination from the ceiling to look at it as it will be too heavy.. Would it be good practice to lengthen these wires that are far too short [and will not pull out further] by using a block connector.?

[Rich-Ando]

yes it should work correctly on both switches. it is hard for me to see properly cos as you say, the wires are very short, why people cut them that short is beyond me

we normally use through crimps but you need the proper ratchet crimping tool for that so you may be better off using blocks.

if it doesn't work let us know and we can try again with another picture show inside the switch box a little better

[alladinsane]

yes it should work correctly on both switches. it is hard for me to see properly cos as you say, the wires are very short, why people cut them that short is beyond me

we normally use through crimps but you need the proper ratchet crimping tool for that so you may be better off using blocks.

if it doesn't work let us know and we can try again with another picture show inside the switch box a little better

mmm loose wire colours are one red and one yellow as in the living room switch, but, difference is these two loose wires have been twinned and judging by the raggedness of the retaining screw on the wiring plate these have been in situ on the other side of the com where the two red wires are, one of the two bridging into the 'com' on the opposite side.. My daughter has asked me to look at this, but to be frank I have not got a clue what is amiss here, but what I do know is my daughter asked an electrician friend of hers to look at this wiring and he bridged the com with the result that now the two switches do not work independently of one another but one only works when the other is switched..My lifelong friend who was a spark left us two years ago, he would I' m sure have sorted this, however I have not one clue what to do, tell me iyho what should I do, maybe pay for an electrician or not? Thanks so much for bearing with me on this...

[Rich-Ando]

if her friend is an electrician, he should have known better than to do what you describe, i would hazard a guess he is an apprentice and doesn't fully know what he is doing because it is a mistake made by a novice.

we should be able to get this working for you fairly easily. the only thing i need is the full truth of the situation. i was under the impression you undid the screws on the top switch and the wires fell out leaving it with how it was. now i know somebody else has played with it that makes all the difference.

what i can't see is the blue wire that should be there and i do not understand why the red & yellow have been twisted together unless the two-way circuit was damaged and they were trying to make it work one way.

can you take a picture of the top switch and show the wires in the back of the box please.

[alladinsane]

if her friend is an electrician, he should have known better than to do what you describe, i would hazard a guess he is an apprentice and doesn't fully know what he is doing because it is a mistake made by a novice.

we should be able to get this working for you fairly easily. the only thing i need is the full truth of the situation. i was under the impression you undid the screws on the top switch and the wires fell out leaving it with how it was. now i know somebody else has played with it that makes all the difference.

what i can't see is the blue wire that should be there and i do not understand why the red & yellow have been twisted together unless the two-way circuit was damaged and they were trying to make it work one way.

can you take a picture of the top switch and show the wires in the back of the box please.

I wished I could do what you say however I cannot, you see I returned home yesterday Tues Sept 11th the 120 miles from my daughters home,I'm not hiding anything from you perish the thought its just how these things unfold, my daughter has just had a baby and she wants the light to work from the kitchen to the living room to bring her child into the house, apparently it never has, so it seems the people who lived in this house before she occupied it had changed things, but, sadly I am guessing, its only when I probe that she mentions these things and says it was a past b/friend who fiddled with it, and who she says was a sparky [he is apparently not in the picture now] so this is where I came in, but only sometime later when she realized the necessity of these switches working independently of each other.. I'm sorry but that is all I know that he put the bridge over the com's, and she seemingly knows that because she gave him the cable to do so and told me he clipped about 2 ins off the red cable and put it in the switch. I think my daughter only asked me because she knows that a lot of years ago I studied electronics at night school but to be honest its far away from electrical work and does not usually carry 240 volts. There is definitely no blue wire there. It seems to me judging by what I see this house was rewired long before the advent of consumer units and has an ordinary fuse box but someone has changed it and it has micro switches instead of fuse wire. so I am careful about this lot as it seems to me that much has been meddled with long before her occupancy. I took numerous pics of that switch, it was when I took the switch plate from the wall the wires fell out and when I looked they had been twinned and the grub screw head was very worn whereas the other screws on the other side were/are like new. I will load the other pics if there are any good ones there, but I do know the focus is none too good as I had to get really close but in order to do so I had to use the flash.

[Rich-Ando]

sorry if i made it sound different to how i actually meant it, when i said the full truths what actually meant was:

that you tell us all the details at the start, whereas you mentioned this other sparky afterwards which makes a difference as to what we think you had, it's just a loy say that they have a certain problem and then later on tell us they had already played about with the connections and think they have it back how it was, if you understand.

ok, ill give you an experienced guess as to what has happened.

if you have red yellow & blue at one switch...you have it at the other.

if you cannot see a blue, try looking up to where the cable comes in the box and i bet you see it cut off. i have seen this before when somebody has nailed something on the wall above a switch, hit the blue strapper in the 3-core cable. they cut it out because it doesnt work and then realise the switches now wont work. they join the yellow and red together which will now at least get the lights to come on but the two-way switching will never work properly again. the only way to get it correct is to replace the cable or accept it wont work right.

[alladinsane]

sorry if i made it sound different to how i actually meant it, when i said the full truths what actually meant was:

that you tell us all the details at the start, whereas you mentioned this other sparky afterwards which makes a difference as to what we think you had, it's just a loy say that they have a certain problem and then later on tell us they had already played about with the connections and think they have it back how it was, if you understand.

ok, ill give you an experienced guess as to what has happened.

if you have red yellow & blue at one switch...you have it at the other.

if you cannot see a blue, try looking up to where the cable comes in the box and i bet you see it cut off. i have seen this before when somebody has nailed something on the wall above a switch, hit the blue strapper in the 3-core cable. they cut it out because it doesn't work and then realize the switches now wont work. they join the yellow and red together which will now at least get the lights to come on but the two-way switching will never work properly again. the only way to get it correct is to replace the cable or accept it wont work right.

Next time I visit my daughter I will again look at this switch but this time I will isolate the supply instead of using an insulated screw driver, I will remove the whole unit but before I do I will make a drawing of the wires so I can get them back into their respective positions.The objective here will be to try and locate this other wire [the blue one should it be there]in an effort to try and pull it through.You indicate that the same wires should be present at both switches so one is missing the blue one. I think there is a red missing to or is it a black anyway I have no idea until I check, but can I just pass this by you a moment for your opinion, sometime ago before my daughter occupied this house new kitchen units were put in then the area tiled, this switch is located in the tiles and so it would not be impossible to knock some of these tiles off and try and find these wires, however I'm not sure they will be there as I just wonder if these kitchen bodgers [fitters] could have nicked it for something else, is that a possibility? Note bodgers because of the shortcuts and mess they made of this job not because I think they purposefully nicked a wire for something else.

I must try to sort this or that will be no living room light working ,so no light at all without her walking through to the kitchen, that amounts to darkness from hall doorway[no light in the small hallway] to kitchen with a newly born. I do not think this is at all feasible, its certainly not practical.as she will have to walk around the house to the kitchen door I see some money being spent here and some upheaval to sort this problem..I welcome your opinion and if there is any quick fix I would be very grateful for your advice, failing that could you give me some idea of the work involved; just what needs to be done to restore the lighting to, and for its original use. .

[Grumps]

I wished I could do what you say however I cannot, you see I returned home yesterday Tues Sept 11th the 120 miles from my daughters home,

Don't be shy. Where does she live? Given the circumstances, someone on here might take pity on her situation.

[alladinsane]

I wished I could do what you say however I cannot, you see I returned home yesterday Tues Sept 11th the 120 miles from my daughters home,

Don't be shy. Where does she live? Given the circumstances, someone on here might take pity on her situation.

Thank you, she lives in Barnsley South Yorks any advice is most welcome I'm stymied by this lot myself and appreciate whatever help I can get or rather my daughter can get ..

[OnlyMe]

Thank you she lives in Barnsley South Yorks any advice is most welcome I'm stymied by this lot myself and appreciate whatever help I can get or rather my daughter can get ..

Nothing wrong with Barnsley.

[OnlyMe]

I have fixed it for her. Sorry for the delay but I was in London until yesterday afternoon.

There is a junction box somewhere on the circuit and the colours of the cables do not match at the two switches. I just needed to find the permanent lives and the switched lives and it now works.

[Grumps]

I have fixed it for her.

Well done.

[OnlyMe]

Just for information. If you have a look back to the OPs photos then the circuit ran like this

The living room switch had a 3 core strapper for the landing light next to a double red and single black for the lounge light. The double red was the strapper and the black (with earth) was the switched live to the lounge light.

In the kitchen switch there was a double red (perm live and switched live) for the kitchen light and a 3 core and earth with the blue core cut off. The red and yellow cores were the strappers to the lounge lightswitch.

The biggest problem was finding any tools. Either someone has been and turned my van upside down and shaken it around before putting it back on it's wheels OR someone just carelessly threw all of his kit into the back of his van on Saturday before driving home from London.