Tilling Cracks

[Pugsy]

I have read several posts now and cant really find what im looking for.

I have a bathroom tiled with UFH.

There was plywood fitted then skimmed then the UFH was laid but im not sure if it was skimmed again before laying the tiles.

What i do know is that getting the tiles up wont be an easy task without damaging the UFH. However thats by-the-by.

The tiles are starting to crack from the toilet seat.

The toilet was anchored down with screws but may have been overtightened (may not as well)

The toilet has never been very secure as the toilet rocks from side to side.

This tilling was cracking but just today the toilet started to leek from the flushpipe hence getting everything sorted at once.

The tiles move very slightly on the floor and since water has been on the floor it has gotten into the cracks.

The water has not been around long. As i said the leeking 'o' ring is what started all this today.

My question is: has the toilet most likely cracked the tiles or was it the way the tiles are laid?

And do i need to pull all the tiles up just because the grout is cracked but the tile moves?

How should a toilet sit on the tiles? should it have a cushion or just ceramic bowl of the toilet directly to the tiles?

From what i can figure out it was the toilet that caused the tiles to crack.

I have been reading about flexible grout, would this help my situation as round the toilet is supject to more movement.

Any information would be greatly appriciated.

-John

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[royaloakcarpentry]

First of all it is a stab in the dark to diagnose the problem without a site visit. This is because it could be one problem or 4 combined. Fix one and you still have the other three.

If this was a firm that did the complete install. I would say the silicone joint between floor and wall is very DIY'ish. Installation of the toilet again is very DIY'ish. Tiling on the floor again has the same problem of poor workmanship, one of the tiles has a big chunk out of the corner and should never have been laid as a full tile.

The toilet sits on the tiles but the holes for the screws have been incorrectly drilled, hence the cracking. It may not have been noticeable but with the toilet rocking and the screw putting more stress on the tile it has now got worse, as can be seen. Toilets only rock on the floor when you have had 15 pints lol

You could do a perfect job on the tiling and preparation but if the floor has too much deflection to it, then flexible adhesive and grout will not compensate for it. The tiles will crack, come loose, grout will crack and come loose.

Your best option is to get a shop recommended tiler around to have a look. Failing that http://www.tiles.org.uk/ will put you in touch with one.

Personally I would far prefer to have seen written down that the floor was sheeted with ply, then a backer board was installed, then the underfloor heating, then latexed and then tiled. This all assumes the floor has minimal deflection.

[Pugsy]

royal Thanks for the promt reply.

Yes it was a firm that installed it and quite expensive may i add. I will not name and shame as not sure it falls in with T&C's.

What do you mean by the toilet wholes have been drilled incorrecly?

I will get onto the firm that fitted it to find out what they exactly did.

A tiler is comming round on thursday but im not convinced with him either as he tiled the kitchen and a tile in there is cracking.

I worry about the floor as it is a bathroom upstairs so it is floorboards.

If what you said; 'sheeted with ply, then a backer board was installed, then the underfloor heating, then latexed and then tiled'

I am worried that if i dont just bite the bullet now and get the whole floor redone it may get worse.

[Pugsy]

Oh and the 'rock on the toilet' is because the screws are now loose and the toilet sits over two tiles lol

[Pugsy]

sorry for another stupid question but:

Why is there need for a backer board if you have already put ply down?

Is backer board hard or soft?

[royaloakcarpentry]

They may have drilled through the tiles with the drill on hammer action. Stranger things have happened. Could be they drilled a 3mm hole through the tiles and the screw thread is 4mm for example.

The toilet should have a silicone joint around the bottom of it. That is normally standard practice unless the client specifically baulks at the idea. I have only ever had that once.

If you get a good tiler/bathroom fitter that knows there stuff you may well find the floor is not suitable for tiling anyway. There is only so much deflection you can take out of a floor by doing extra work to it.

We have properties where we do a lot of various work and in these apartments and houses the floors are only suitable for vinyl etc. They are floating floors and we won't tile them. Other firms go in and do it and within 4 weeks the tiles are loose!

Just seen your latest while writing this. The screws for the toilet should not come loose. The toilet should be securely fixed and not rock. Normally they rock when the tiling is not flat.

Just seen the other last.....You do not need to use a backer board on top of the ply. You can install the underfloor heating onto the ply providing it is fixed in accordance to British Standards, same goes for tiling. The backer board is more belt and braces in your case because looking at the work standard the material standard will also be poor. Cheap ply suffers with delamination and they will not have primed the back and edges before laying.

[Pugsy]

royal,

You clearly know your stuff and thank-you very much for your input.

I will see what the tiler suggests, maybe get a few tilers opinions.

Thanks again, much appriciated

John

[royaloakcarpentry]

No problem.

[m3 fitter]

pugsy ... in my opinion, the substrate was not of sufficient rigidity ie: too much flex in the floor, using plywood on wooden floors is archaic, these days Knauf aquapanel cement board or similiar is the way to go as 12.5mm aquapanel gives you the rigidity of 3/4" plywood, and is water resistant, which is a must in a bathroom. This floor must be removed and re installed starting from the substrate, accept no less from the company as cracking grout is a sure sign of a major problem.

[Pugsy]

m3fitter,

Thanks very much for your opinion,

The tiler came today and feared the worse that they had not skimmed on top of the UFH so repairing might damage the UFH.

He is going to have a a go at repairing it as he thinks that its not the deflection in the floor thats the problem more the damp getting in.

Only when he pulls the tiles up will be able to tell to what extent the damage is underneath.

I will let you know what has happened.

regards

John

[tictic]

pugsy ... in my opinion, the substrate was not of sufficient rigidity ie: too much flex in the floor, using plywood on wooden floors is archaic, these days Knauf aquapanel cement board or similiar is the way to go as 12.5mm aquapanel gives you the rigidity of 3/4" plywood, and is water resistant, which is a must in a bathroom. This floor must be removed and re installed starting from the substrate, accept no less from the company as cracking grout is a sure sign of a major problem.

OP
as the above...you have movement/deflection in your subfloor...



..not damp... ....yer fixer is talking out his a r s e

[Colour Republic]

OP
as the above...you have movement/deflection in your subfloor...



..not damp... ....yer fixer is talking out his a r s e

Not strictly true, the leaking toilet could have caused the ply to blow. But agree deflection is much more likely the cause coupled with the pressure of a rocking WC