'Home Plug' technology question.

[arco_iris]

Put in 'Communications & Broadband' because that is what it is used for. Does any wizard member comprehend the standard by which Home Plugs operate? Let me explain my query.

Firstly, plug'n'play (wifi extender) Home Plugs transmit broadband through a buildings electric cabling, normally the ring main, therefore whatever signal it is cannot go further than either (a) the consumer unit mcb or (b) the meter.

I reckon it is not (a), because my house has three consumer units...... one is for the higher rated circuits including three ring mains (kitchen, bedrooms, and the living area) and a second CU, used to be for radial circuits to off-peak appliances, but has been adapted/converted (by and so with the approval of, the supplier) to 13amp sockets, which are therefore spurs. Home Plugs transmit from a ring main socket to these spur sockets OK.

(The third CU is only for multiple lighting circuits and has not consequently been tried).

And so, at the modern recently installed smart meter there is a single live & single neutral from the meter to a henley block within the external meter cupboard. From there, there are two of each, one set goes to the old off peak CU and the other set, through further henley blocks to the other two CUs. So the signal must go back to the meter box block before returning to the radials cu., so its the meter that prevents the signal going to the neighbour's homeplug, isn't it.

Now, to complicate this explanation, on the wall behind the meter box, internally, there are FOUR 60A mains switches:

1. Old Off Peak CU
2. House Circuits & Lighting CUs
3. Remote outbuilding A which has its own consumer unit for mains circuits and lighting
4. Remote outbuilding B ditto.
It was like this when I moved in.

But Home Plugs do not work in Building A or B, why not? They all run off the block under the meter. It isn't distance, because if I run an extension lead from a circuit on CU2 to Building B, I can get broadband.

Answers on a postcard please.......

[kellys_eye]

Presumably A and B are switched on..... what are the earthing arrangements at those buildings?

[Bob225]

powerline adapters can be hit and miss especially when bridging supplies ideally on the same disboard, powerline adapters are encrypted when synced they bond to the mac addresses

Powerline standards - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_1901

In a large property I would run dual band wifi with repeaters and maybe radius using good quality access point (AP) like Draytek or Ubiquiti

Ideally the AP's should be hard wired where possible, PoE simplifies there install, outbuildings depend on distance tbh if hard wiring isn't a option, directional external wifi will do the trick

[arco_iris]

Presumably A and B are switched on.....

Yes, of course!

what are the earthing arrangements at those buildings?

To answer this I had to dismantle the panelling behind a freezer, sorry for the delay.

Meter Box.jpg (225.76 KiB) Viewed 7446 times

In the meter box it can be seen that the old L & N cables (at the bottom) which formerly fed on-peak & off-peak consumer units have been joined together in a new block, when the meter was replaced. (At the same time I got the engineer to fit the isolator). At the bottom left there are two earth cables coming out of the box containing the sealed board fuse.

As far as I can tell, these two cables go to a henley block the other side of the wall as shown in this picture:

Switches Right.jpg (152.5 KiB) Viewed 7446 times

and from there to the CU's.

The top 60A switch controls the Main House (one CU for ring mains, c/h, cooker etc. & one for lighting circuits) and the bottom switch controls Outbuilding A's CU with the earth from the block looping through the top brass bar to the bottom one & thence the SWA cable going to the outbuilding.

(Home Plugs work on circuits controlled by the top switch*, but not the bottom one).

Similarly there are two switches adjacent, with the same earth arrangement:

Switches Left.jpg (168.23 KiB) Viewed 7446 times

the top one being the former off-peak CU & the bottom one, Outbuilding B.

(Home Plugs work on circuits controlled by the top switch*, but not the bottom one).

*from one to the other.

Therefore, all cables (L,N & E) ultimately terminate in the meter box.

[arco_iris]

powerline adapters can be hit and miss especially when bridging supplies ideally on the same disboard, powerline adapters are encrypted when synced they bond to the mac addresses

Powerline standards - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_1901

In a large property I would run dual band wifi with repeaters and maybe radius using good quality access point (AP) like Draytek or Ubiquiti

Ideally the AP's should be hard wired where possible, PoE simplifies there install, outbuildings depend on distance tbh if hard wiring isn't a option, directional external wifi will do the trick

Overall, that sounds expensive, complicated (& impractical/unfeasible), and the link is pretty much unfathomable! It doesn't explain whether Broadband over Power Line needs L, N & E or only two of them, presumably for TX & RX.

It isn't distance, because if I put a homeplug in the end of an extension lead & plug it in to a house socket, it works fine in Outbuilding B. But it doesn't work off a socket in there, although the power all comes from the same meter.

[Bob225]

iirc powerline adapters use a AC coupled signal so live and neutral

so let me get this right, Both out building feeds will not tx/rx a power line signal but the top 2 will ?

These are just isolation switches - are the main 2 CU aka fuses boards modern ones with rcd protection ? are the CU's in the out buildings rcd protected ?

networking isn't complicated, and it doesn't need to be expensive, what sort of distance are the out buildings away from the main house ? and how far apart ? what is the network required for ? with this info we can work out a solution

[arco_iris]

so let me get this right, Both out building feeds will not tx/rx a power line signal but the top 2 will ?

Thanks Bob & Yes, that is correct.

Top right isolator supplies Fuse Board / CU (1) 3 metres away for house ring mains, cooker, etc. and has RCD incomer.

(2) Top left isolator feeds the former off-peak board (3m), no RCD. What used to be connection units for storage heaters have been converted to conventional 1 gang sockets, so each one is a radial, spur, from this board. With the router connected to a ring main on CU1, a second homeplug (TP-Link AV500 wifi extender) plugged in to one of these spurs conveys the signal.

Bottom right isolator (taking supply & earth from top right) feeds a split board (3), 60 metres away in Outbuilding A the Pool House, through SWA buried underground. The ring main is rcd protected, homeplug receiver lights up but cannot relay the internet.

Bottom left isolator feeds Outbuilding B, 30 metres away, underground SWA to conventional garage board ((4) - 2 x 16A & 2 x 6A) with no rcd. HP ditto.

I am familiar with building a wired network and would have installed the wiring (through trunking) if I had had the outbuildings erected, but it was before my time (Pool was constructed 2004 & garage 2008) but it is not now feasible to hard wire them without a lot of digging across hardstandings. Not pretty to go overhead either, anyway......

As for the reasons for wanting wifi in outbuildings, firstly I've recently been disposing of stuff on an auction site and it would be really handy to have a wi-fi signal in the garage. Secondly, when the teenage grandchildren are here (and their FB mad parents) they go constantly from the house to the pool, staring at their 'phones, which lose connection when they get there!

[Bob225]

I take it there both to the rear of the property ? a external AP and (2 repeaters/AP's if required) should do the job

Get the AP as high up as you can

[arco_iris]

Many thanks, Bob, food for thought - but I still really would like to know why the wifi extenders don't work correctly on different parts of the same electrical installation!

I don't think my issue warrants the expense of an external AP, especially as I would need an IP67 rating (no eaves shelter) and, as the house is Grade II Listed, only one, very difficult, place it could possibly go.

I'll stick with the 30m extension lead that works.

HNY.

[Bob225]

Its more than likely rcd or transformer related, as its grade 2 listed that rules out a lot of solutions but all is not lost

[Bob225]

Had a think about this one, there are a few ways to do it

remove the 2 lower isolators and replace with a din rail box/CU, bring in the feed from the off-peek side into a DP isolator you can then have a circuit for each out building and a third circuit for a radial to a socket for a home plug (cheaper option) or use a din rail mount powerline adapter like the Devolo Dlan Pro 1200+ then all you need is a network connection and Powerline wifi extenders in the out buildings