No earth wire for new bathroom light.

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Drogers
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No earth wire for new bathroom light.

Post by Drogers »

Hello all,
I have a new light to fit in the bathroom that needs earthing but there is only the live and neutral wires.
I have sourced where there is an earth wire in the loft (pic) and tested to make sure it’s actually earthed.
My question is if I run some earth wire from that terminal to the separate live and neutral wires are die the bathroom and drop it through the ceiling and connect to the light will this be what’s required so it’s safe?

I know it may be an obvious answer but just want to make sure it’s sound.
I have the same light fitting for the downstairs bathroom that does have an earth wire but when I tested for continuity it was dud and I can’t see where else I can connect to an earth. Light switch is also a dud earth tucked up inside the wiring.

I may need to buy a double insulated light for that one but if I can connect the upstairs one with an earth at least that’s one sorted.

Thanks Dean
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yartin
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No earth wire for new bathroom light.

Post by yartin »

I have done similar, can't see anything wrong with it but niceic or napit may disagree.
Or as you said, fit class 2 double insulated lights.
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Drogers (Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:26 am)
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Drogers
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No earth wire for new bathroom light.

Post by Drogers »

Thanks for reply.
Yes I believe it will be ok but just wanting to check it’s ok to send a single earth wire from that terminal to a separate live and neutral.
Usually the earth wire is there and just connect but with this house not much surprises me!
The previous owners hobby was DIY and I wish it was anything but that.
Drogers
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No earth wire for new bathroom light.

Post by Drogers »

I’ll fit the light this morning.

The earth wire from the junction box is from a different circuit but still it’s an earth wire so I would think it’s ok to drop down and use on the bathroom light.

The second light in the downstairs bathroom has no earth so I’ll order a different double insulated light for that one as being downstairs has no loft and no easy access to any other earth wiring.
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No earth wire for new bathroom light.

Post by Rorschach »

All earths are ultimately bonded together at the consumer unit so personally I would happily use the nearest earthing point and run an extra wire.
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Drogers (Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:26 am)
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Drogers
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No earth wire for new bathroom light.

Post by Drogers »

Thanks Rorschach will get it fitted.

Helps with the confidence otherwise I will fit it all and then get a reply that says ‘no that’s not right’ and have to mess about with it all.

Cheers
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Someone-Else
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No earth wire for new bathroom light.

Post by Someone-Else »

no thats not right, sorry you will have to mess about with it all.

You would be better off re wiring it. You are only supposed to use the earth connection for the circuit it is for. What you actually do is up to you.

Example 1)
You take an earth from the sockets for the lights, some time later there is a fault, all the lights and switches become live.

Example 2)
You take an earth from the sockets for the lights and some time later that socket is removed, you now have no earth.


I just chose sockets, I could have said immersion heater or other lights


Just because "it works" does not mean it is safe.
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No earth wire for new bathroom light.

Post by wine~o »

Provided the earth is from the same lighting circuit you are pretty well good.
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No earth wire for new bathroom light.

Post by ericmark »

The only small problem when not taking an earth from same point as the lives (Line and neutral) is if in the future the point where you take it from is removed, you could loose the earth connection. And anything severing the supply cable will not also cut through the earth, however with a modern RCD protected house I would assess the risk as being very small. So would not be unduly worried.

I would question how any lighting circuit today is not provided with an earth, the rules changed in 1966 and from that date we have needed to supply an earth to a lighting fixture even if not used at the fixture, with the exception of the lamp holders which are suspended
A circuit protective conductor shall be run to and terminated at each point in wiring and at each accessory except a lampholder having no exposed-conductive-parts and suspended from such a point.
and SELV (separated extra low voltage) supplies.

So any supply to lights with no earth is either a converted SELV or pre 1966 supply, the problem is pre 1966 cables tend to be rubber, and are reaching or have reached end of useful life, and with my parents house I had a problem getting a RCD to hold in, my dad was stubborn, and said "I'm not living in a building site, you can get house re-wired when I'm gone." which is what happened. But to be frank I was worried about electrical fires until it was done, the wires were crumbling.

So until the re-wire is was all class II fittings. We are told supplies to bathroom lights should be RCD protected, but can't remember when that came in, I think 2008? So although there is no requirement to upgrade to current regulations, if you change the design, and changing from class II to class I is a change in design, then you need to follow the regulations in force when the design is changed, so lights should be RCD protected in the bath room.

Having said that it would not worry me in my bathroom, I would not be standing on the edge of a full bath to change bulb, so even if my house was not RCD protected on all circuits it would not cause undue worry.
Drogers
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Post by Drogers »

Someone-Else wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:48 pm no thats not right, sorry you will have to mess about with it all.

You would be better off re wiring it. You are only supposed to use the earth connection for the circuit it is for. What you actually do is up to you.

Oh dear.

So when you say I’m better off re-wiring it do you mean re-wiring all the way back to the main board so that the earth wire is usable in the same lighting circuit?

The house is 1963 and both the lights in the bathrooms have an earth wire in the cable but has no continuity so will be no good to use. On the extension side of the house approx 20 yrs ago i assume it has an earth but not changed any lights there myself. Qualified electrician done that.

If I have to re-wire to get the earth live in the same circuit then I’ll just get another class 2 light like the downstairs one and swallow the £25 loss on the light.

Never knew changing a light could be so much hassle lol. 😆

We live and learn, glad I checked. Any advice appreciated, just want it safe....I like to sleep at night.

Cheers
Drogers
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Post by Drogers »

ericmark wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:03 am Post Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:03 am
The only small problem when not taking an earth from same point as the lives (Line and neutral) is if in the future the point where you take it from is removed, you could loose the earth connection. And anything severing the supply cable will not also cut through the earth, however with a modern RCD protected house I would assess the risk as being very small. So would not be unduly worried.
Yes in assessing it that way it would be ok. The earth wire being from another circuit would not be ideal although better than none. Which is what was there before, class 1 light and no earth attached.

Also knowing that the other circuit the earth is taken from will remain there and if it was to be removed then the earth wire will be void and need re-routing or it brings it back to the class 2 light being fitted to avoid that.
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No earth wire for new bathroom light.

Post by yartin »

Someone-Else wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:48 pm
Example 1)
You take an earth from the sockets for the lights, some time later there is a fault, all the lights and switches become live.

Example 2)
You take an earth from the sockets for the lights and some time later that socket is removed, you now have no earth.
Example 1: How can that happen? Wouldn't the RCD or fuse trip if Earth becomes live?

Example 2: Is understandable BUT avoidable.
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Someone-Else
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No earth wire for new bathroom light.

Post by Someone-Else »

yartin wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:58 am
Example 1: How can that happen? Wouldn't the RCD or fuse trip if Earth becomes live?

Example 2: Is understandable BUT avoidable.
If the wiring has no earth, it's doubtful there is an RCD (all too old)

Avoidable yes, but only if you know that has what has been done, which is exactly why you shouldn't do it.
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Would you hit a nail with a shoe because you don't have a hammer? of course not, then why work on anything electrical without a means of testing Click Here to buy a "tester" just because it works, does NOT mean it is safe.

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yartin
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No earth wire for new bathroom light.

Post by yartin »

Someone-Else wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:09 am
yartin wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:58 am
Example 1: How can that happen? Wouldn't the RCD or fuse trip if Earth becomes live?

Example 2: Is understandable BUT avoidable.
If the wiring has no earth, it's doubtful there is an RCD (all too old)
Ok, I have RCD.
Drogers
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Post by Drogers »

Someone-Else wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:09 am
yartin wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:58 am
Example 1: How can that happen? Wouldn't the RCD or fuse trip if Earth becomes live?

Example 2: Is understandable BUT avoidable.
If the wiring has no earth, it's doubtful there is an RCD (all too old)

Avoidable yes, but only if you know that has what has been done, which is exactly why you shouldn't do it.
I’ve checked the main board and it is RCD protected so I suppose although the house being built in 1963 at some point this has been upgraded although no earth on the lighting circuit (in the older side of the house at least) so this would protect me from example 1.

Example 2: As I do know that the earth wire now connected to the bathroom light is from another circuit I know that any problems from that circuit will affect the earth that’s on the bathroom light so would be cautious of that.
Also if/when the house was ever sold I can input this on the electrical report/notes and any Electricians or new owners will be able to see it and can also assess from looking in the loft if in any doubt.

That’s about as safe as I can make it really albeit buying a class 2 light or a re-wire to have the earth from the same circuit which for 1 light is just not practical.
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