Electricity bill

kellys_eye · Post by **kellys_eye** » Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:17 am

It's almost (but not quite) cheaper to generate your own. And given the scales of production we're talking about I find this to be astonishing. The price of energy is waaaaay over and above what it should be - deliberately.

A decent diesel genset can turn out (running red diesel) around 1kWhr per 15p. Obviously there are purchase costs and maintenance to consider but still, that's LESS than what I'm charged per kWhr from a system that is orders of magnitude larger therefore must be a LOT cheaper to produce.

Tom d'Angler · Post by **Tom d'Angler** » Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:14 am

kellys_eye wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:17 am It's almost (but not quite) cheaper to generate your own.

Any idea if solar panels on the roof and a wind turbine in the garden would be cost-effective? I guess we don't get a lot of sun in the UK but we get plenty of wind.

Someone-Else · Post by **Someone-Else** » Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:54 am

You think we get a lot of wind, but we don't, least not in towns. I tried one, put it in the garden, only wanted it to power a single LED tiny flood light, the rotor never got anywhere near upto speed, well it did.............when I put a drill on it.

arco_iris · Post by **arco_iris** » Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:22 pm

Tom d'Angler wrote: ↑ I'm happy to pay that little bit extra as it means we can water the garden, wash our vehicles, and fill our large paddling pool as much as we want.

Are you on mains sewage?

If so, you do realise don't you, that sewage is charged at 92.5% of water consumed (however it is measured) and sewage disposal is waaay more expensive than the incoming water, study your bill. So the water you consume willy-nilly as above, that does not go back to the sewer, is costing you a great deal. That's why water butts and rain water collection are a good idea. Fresh water supplied doesn't cost much, it's the getting rid of foul water that does.

If you have a septic tank, forget I mentioned it.

kellys_eye · Post by **kellys_eye** » Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:57 pm

Tom d'Angler wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:14 am Any idea if solar panels on the roof and a wind turbine in the garden would be cost-effective? I guess we don't get a lot of sun in the UK but we get plenty of wind.

It's never an easy thing to determine - to be cost-effective you have to relate expenditure to power saved and this can mean break-even taking from zero time (all costs born by others and/or freebies plus your own labour etc) to decades i.e max cost, problems, poor output, bad design etc.

I consider such systems to be ALTERNATIVES for when mains supplies may not be available - at which point cost becomes irrelevant as the availability AT ANY COST over not having any can't have a price put against it.

But a system capable of powering a whole house as-is is no mean feat and takes careful design and adjustment of approach to how you use energy.

Forget wind - pointless. Even solar only works for those who receive subsidies. A competent DIYer with access to used/cheap source material could make a system that works and has a short payback time but the technology is still not at a place where it's worth pursuing unless you're truly off-grid and have no other source of energy.

Nos · Post by **Nos** » Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:06 am

kellys_eye wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:17 am It's almost (but not quite) cheaper to generate your own. And given the scales of production we're talking about I find this to be astonishing. The price of energy is waaaaay over and above what it should be - deliberately.

A decent diesel genset can turn out (running red diesel) around 1kWhr per 15p. Obviously there are purchase costs and maintenance to consider but still, that's LESS than what I'm charged per kWhr from a system that is orders of magnitude larger therefore must be a LOT cheaper to produce.

Sorry I have lived on generators for many years, the purchase price for a proper one is about 8K upwards, they need frequent oil changes, and they break down, also they are noisy, emit fumes, and are very heavy if they run at 1500rpm then they are good for continuous running, if they run at 3000rpm then they are a stand by, genny , ie to be run for short periods of time. I have gone through about fifteen small petrol ones and three big ie + 10Kwt diesel ones as well, I prefer mains, let someone else do the generating. To answer the other question here in France we pay 0.0963 of a euro per Kwt of power and then 0.2250 per Kwt standing charge + TTC 20% and 7€ per month.

kellys_eye · Post by **kellys_eye** » Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:17 am

Nos wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:06 am Sorry I have lived on generators for many years,

If it is down to choice then having someone else do it is always the preferred route - but we're talking not only cost but availability.

This is a 'deep' subject with many variables and beyond the scope of this thread. I'd love to discuss further!

Tom d'Angler · Post by **Tom d'Angler** » Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:17 pm

arco_iris wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:22 pm So the water you consume willy-nilly as above, that does not go back to the sewer, is costing you a great deal.

Not personally it's not as I came off metered water to un-metered, but I get your point.

Tom d'Angler · Post by **Tom d'Angler** » Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:20 pm

kellys_eye wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:57 pm But a system capable of powering a whole house as-is is no mean feat and takes careful design and adjustment of approach to how you use energy.

I'm amazed at the very low percentage of new-builds being fitted with solar panels. It's probably less than 1 in 10 around here. Surely, the best time to fit solar panels and the associated paraphernalia is when a house is being built.

kellys_eye · Post by **kellys_eye** » Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:05 pm

Tom d'Angler wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:20 pm I'm amazed at the very low percentage of new-builds being fitted with solar panels.

It is estimated that a solar PV system has around 15-25 year payback/break-even period, shorter if you get a decent subsidy level but (thankfully) they've reduced those somewhat recently - which is probably why they aren't more common. Fitting a system that can both power your house (sometimes) and back feed to the grid (sometimes) isn't cheap or easy and maintenance is a big issue too. The panels do need cleaning and accessing a rooftop isn't always straightforward - indeed in these H&S times you'd be looking at scaffold or a cherry picker to do it at least once a year, more often if there are other issues/faults.

All this wind/solar guff is predicated on a massive lie - that CO2 is harmful. Tell it to the plants and animals that require it. If you have spare money, invest in LPG shares.

chrrris · Post by **chrrris** » Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:25 pm

kellys_eye wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:05 pm It is estimated that a solar PV system has around 15-25 year payback/break-even period,

Yes. And solar panels have an approximate 25 year useful life-span. I can see they have their uses for providing off-grid power to a shed, boat, or outbuilding for simple things like LED lighting and maybe a computer or TV. Such a small system can by DIY-ed for around £800-£1000 (I looked into this recently). The figures just don't seem to add up for a grid tie system in the UK (at least, without, the rapidly diminishing government subsidies to prop them up, as you said).

Someone-Else · Post by **Someone-Else** » Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:32 pm

I am sure I read that a decent inverter (To change the 12v DC to 230v ac) costs a couple of grand, but the real joke is they only last 10 years

chrrris · Post by **chrrris** » Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:34 pm

Someone-Else wrote: ↑Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:32 pm I am sure I read that a decent inverter (To change the 12v DC to 230v ac) costs a couple of grand, but the real joke is they only last 10 years

Whether they're decent or not is definitely open to debate, but you can get a 1.5kW pure sine wave inverter from amazon for £170. I have one in my van for charging power tools. Made in china, obvs.

The rest of the cost is panel(s), a charge controller, a leisure battery, and cables/connectors/brackets/etc.

kellys_eye · Post by **kellys_eye** » Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:46 pm

I have a Xantrex 3024 3kW pure sinewave inverter/charger lying in my workshop - doing nothing! I'd sell it (cheap) but delivery would be a b****h - weighs 50kg+

AFAIK there ore only a very few (one) that have hit the solar PV 'right' - most are still looking for a positive return and NONE that are not grid-tied have actually made a profit. Not that I know of many (four in total) TBH.

It's always bee a scam IMHO - sort of like selling GPS services to the man-in-the-street - it has some uses but usually not for what most people need. We need CHEAP energy.

Nos · Post by **Nos** » Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:43 am

If anyone is interested look on this website, they specialise in Off Grid power, had their catalogue years ago but could not afford a full off grid system. (Bardens UK)