European/Polish Wiring Standards for Sockets?

Paulinius · Post by **Paulinius** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:04 am

Hi,

I've been doing some refurbishment work to flat in Poland and was horrified to see that some sockets had no earth and on all of them it didn't matter which way the live and neutral was wired. I'm not an electrician and I'm engaging one to replace the wiring and sockets but the double sockets that are sold don't honour the live and neutral so on one of the sockets it's reversed. This seems crazy. Can any let me know if this is normal in Poland and also tell me why it doesn't matter which way live and neutral are?

Thanks

kellys_eye · Post by **kellys_eye** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:35 am

In theory - AC is polarity independent but in the UK the neutral is referenced to earth so the 'live' (and hence the polarity) becomes essential and touching live - to earth - gives you a belt which is why they detect current flow and use RCDs.

However, when using site power tools at 110V the supply is via a transformer that isolates mains neutral from earth (the primary is earthed on one side but the secondary of the transformer is earthed via a centre tap) so, again, polarity is not important as the secondary windings are 'floating'. Note that the earthed centre-tapped secondary means there is only 55V available between any of the two 'live' terminals of the transformer and earth, placing the secondary under the 'legal' low voltage category.

I don't know what Poland do for earthing but if the building supply is via a 'floating' (i.e. no earth reference) source then obviously no earth connection is available or needed. In theory, touching either 'live' terminal does nothing as there is no return path via ground to hurt you.

The use of an earth referenced neutral is to save on wires! The supply from the source (3-phase) has the common (neutral) returned via (literally) the ground thus saving a wire core! If they used a wire instead then our own supply would be 'earth isolated' too and you wouldn't need live/neutral differentiation and you'd only be able to be shocked if you touched ACROSS the supply lines.

Someone-Else · Post by **Someone-Else** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:10 pm

Poland has 230v A.C. Just like we do here in the U.K.
The majority of Polish sockets are round with central "holes" which means you can put in a plug either way round, so with that in mind it may be a socket or two has been installed upside down. (Not everything over there has an earth.)

In the U.K. the switch on say a hairdryer, can legally just break the live when operated. This is called a single pole switch.
Ideally you should switch off Live and Neutral. This is called a double pole switch.

Since I do not know the Polish regs/law I can not say if their "stuff" has a single pole or double pole switch.
You really would be better off asking a Polish electrician.

Paulinius · Post by **Paulinius** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:04 pm

Thank you for answering my question.

Indeed Poland is 230v AC. The wiring in older sockets has no earth. Then in newer sockets it has an earth. This is a male pin above the two female live and neutral holes/contacts. This means the plug can only be put into the socket one way and can't be reversed. The crazy thing is that when a double socket is installed they are verticaly, one above the other and the two earth pins are nearest each other so the top socket is upside down. The live and neutral are fed straight up from the bottom socket to the top socket so the live on the bottom socket is neutral on the top socket and the neural on the bottom is now on the live side. Whoa this blows my mind. Having grown up in the UK and seeing how there are all sorts of precautions, regulations, and warnings to wire things correctly, when I go to Poland and see how they do things it looks quite crazy and dangerous.

How on earth can it be ok to not care about which pin is live and which is earth? I know it doesn't matter with a light bulb but for a washing machine, a cooker, or an electric drill, how come it doesn't matter for them?

Chippo1 · Post by **Chippo1** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:02 pm

The thing is is the 240v derived from two lines at 120v , which means it really doesent make much difference as to which way around the connection is , similar to 110v work site trannies which are 55/55v

One danger is in uk say ur toaster is wired arse up , the elements remain live even when the toaster stops unless the switch is dp , so silly person with knife in hand to winkle out stuck bun not only gets a bunch of volts but possibly Amps to , result death ! And most likely a blown fuse and MCB ! Thinking of my own Dualit toaster here . But how about electric fires ? Old ones with open elements still in use

Grumps · Post by **Grumps** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:05 pm

Paulinius wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:04 pm I know it doesn't matter with a light bulb

Not strictly true. View this thread.

http://www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk/forum ... 3&t=105366

Yes the centre terminal should be live. Which means you need to get your multi meter out and find out which is which, or do as most people do, connect it anyway.
The reason the centre pin is supposed to be live and not the outer is so that when the lamp is screwed in if you touch the threaded part of the lamp and you are earthed you will not get a shock. It used to be common with par 38 lamp fittings and shop "track" lights

Grumps · Post by **Grumps** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:10 pm

There are a number of Youtube vids concerning how the USA derives 240v from 110volts, or vice versa. This one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMmUoZh ... onnections

is not particularly brilliant, but explains the principle.

ericmark · Post by **ericmark** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:17 pm

UK has fuse in the plug, so must have line and neutral correct way around, with most countries including UK before WW2 the fuse is in a fuse box, and many countries use double pole MCB's.

Chippo1 · Post by **Chippo1** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:35 pm

Did I read some where that before Brexit Europe was to harmonise on the MK pattern 3 pin fused plug ?

arco_iris · Post by **arco_iris** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:04 pm

Chippo1 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:35 pm Did I read some where that before Brexit Europe was to harmonise on the MK pattern 3 pin fused plug ?

I doubt that very much, you must have been dreaming. There's far more plugs & sockets across the EU than there are in UK.

British Standard 1363 (BS1363) was introduced in 1947, if it suited Europe they'd have folllowed a long time ago. Not even Australia & India, to name but two, followed Britain with offset three pin plugs.

Paulinius · Post by **Paulinius** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:54 pm

More illuminating information on the trickery of electricity. Apologies for getting some puns in.

My previous post should have read 'How on earth can it be ok to not care about which pin is live and which is neutral? But as explained by Chippo1 'One danger is in uk say ur toaster is wired arse up , the elements remain live even when the toaster stops unless the switch is dp', and by ericmricmark 'UK has fuse in the plug, so must have live and neutral correct way around'. So if I take my UK electrical devices to Poland, plug them into a travel adapter and this into a Polish upside down socket then the fuse is now on the neutral and the unit is live as the device only has a single switch on what is now the neutral. Very frightening. Why the hell aren't we warned of this potentially lethal situation before we travel to Poland or the rest of Europe?

Someone-Else · Post by **Someone-Else** » Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:18 pm

Paulinius wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:54 pmWhy the hell aren't we warned of this potentially lethal situation before we travel to Poland or the rest of Europe?

Need to know. Most folk do not need to know. Most are of the opinion "well it works doesn't it, so you must be wrong"

Neelix · Post by **Neelix** » Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:32 am

Paulinius wrote: ↑Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:04 am Hi,

I've been doing some refurbishment work to flat in Poland and was horrified to see that some sockets had no earth and on all of them it didn't matter which way the live and neutral was wired. I'm not an electrician and I'm engaging one to replace the wiring and sockets but the double sockets that are sold don't honour the live and neutral so on one of the sockets it's reversed. This seems crazy. Can any let me know if this is normal in Poland and also tell me why it doesn't matter which way live and neutral are?

Thanks

You by your own admission are doing work in Poland which includes the electrics. Without doing any research.

I’m a spark and wouldn’t work Outside the UK . End of

And may I add that there are lots of polish “sparks” or builders in the uk that don’t follow BS 7671 either

kellys_eye · Post by **kellys_eye** » Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:56 am

Neelix wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:32 am You by your own admission are doing work in Poland which includes the electrics. Without doing any research.

Ahem....

Neelix wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:32 am I'm not an electrician and I'm engaging one to replace the wiring and sockets

ericmark · Post by **ericmark** » Sun Oct 03, 2021 9:46 am

Although now in the UK we do have RCD protection, we were well behind Europe, it was considered our system was safer to start with and we did not need it. To compare UK and rest of Europe you must compare what was required at a point in time, no good comparing a 1950's home and 2020 home, so when you see what seems poor workmanship abroad you must also ask when installed.

The problem was movement of labour, some guy from Poland working here or British guy working in Germany wanting to take with him his electrical equipment and use it. Most UK to Schuko or type F do not comply with "553.1.2 Except for SELV or a special circuit from Regulation 553.1.5, every plug and socket-outlet shall be of the non-reversible type. with provision for the connection of a protective conductor." so are not to BS 7671, however BS 7671 is not law, and before Brexit we could wire a home to any European standard, so we could wire to the German standard, however the problem arose with Part P, as to use the schemes the scheme provider requires the electrician to follow BS 7671 so for a scheme member it is law, so to wire to German standard it needed a non scheme member to wire it, and for it to be passed by the LABC inspector.

Hotels do not come under Part P so German sockets not so much of a problem.

As to rules in other countries some are stricter than ours, I seem to remember in Australia it is very strict, no DIY permitted, seem to remember being told Irish republic also very strict rules.

When I have worked abroad the firm took care of work permits etc. Worked in Algeria, Falklands, and Hong Kong and last two used British system.

Laws permitting fitting a British 13 amp socket to an other countries radial circuit system is not really a problem, it is fitting another countries sockets to our ring final system which causes a problem. These

have no fuse, so are dangerous used in UK as our ring final fuse is 32 amp, similar in other countries is not a problem except for lack of shutters.