Wiring nightmare!

LadySpark · Post by **LadySpark** » Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:32 am

Help! I am absolutely perplexed by a customer's wiring.

Standard consumer unit, two bars, one RCD. Kitchen extension has been added so kitchen and utility lights on one side of consumer unit, kitchen and utility sockets, cooker and shower in utility on the other side with the RCD.

I was asked to change lights and switches to metal. Arrived and found no earth wire in old lighting circuits up and down in the house but kitchen extension did have PCP on light line. Quoted for rewiring and customer doesn't want to pay so much "just changing a few light fittings and switches". I agreed to fit replacement plastic light fittings and plastic light switches. One of those immaculate show homes where you don't dare leave the tiniest mark around the switch or a single crumb on the floor. Customer seemed satisfied and paid.

Next day I get a call that the shower and garage light stopped working. Customer genuinely believed that the shower was "on the same electricity" as the lights so it is my fault. OK, external isolator switch stuck in the on position so must have burnt on the inside. I can replace that.

Garage light doesn't seem to be on any circuit! Certainly not any of the three lighting lines. However, I really wish I had not set foot in the garage!

Whoever did the kitchen extension ran all wires along the garage roof using clip direct. No metal bands but its not a fire escape route. Just wires everywhere. I think I figured out which was cooker, shower, sockets and extension lights. Garage light is on none of these, nor on the upstairs or downstairs lines. There is a REALLY old wylex fusebox in the garage. No MCBs or RCDs just the old wylex fuses. Only the garage freezer seems to be running from this. Not the garage light. The only way I could cut power to the garage light was to turn off the main switch at the consumer unit. Turning off light MCBs did nothing to cut power, nor did turning off wylex.

I just do not understand this wiring at all! I have stared at it for ages, followed wires, tested, searched for more hidden connections and can't figure out how this house is wired. The garage light has an earth wire, so I was expecting it to be on the kitchen lights line - illogical based on location - but it is not as it remains live when those lights are definitely powered off at the consumer unit.

HELP PLEASE!!!! What do you do when you just can't figure it out? I embarrassed myself and have to return on Saturday as I'm fully booked all week.

Someone-Else · Post by **Someone-Else** » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:43 am

LadySpark wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:32 amTurning off light MCBs did nothing to cut power

Then why not turn off/remove all protective devices one at a time and see when the lamp does go off, it is either on an FCU from the sockets, or just wired to "The nearest cable"

edited due to typo.

ericmark · Post by **ericmark** » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:47 am

I assume an integral garage, but not sure, I have had problems in the past including supply coming from neighbour. I find loop impedance readings some times give a clue, but would look for 15/16 amp fuse/MCB as common to use old immersion heater supply. Also look where immersion heater may have been in the past. The rewire-able fuse has caught me out in the past, wire broken right on the screw, so looks intact but is not, test with meter don't just look, and put a little pressure on the wire through tell tail hole.

Also remember people do lie, yes it did work last week is not always true. When mothers house was rewired they were to remove all non working sockets, but they missed some, I knew but failed to tell new owners so they could tell some one they did work without realising it had been dead since rewire.

Remember some old fuse boxes have asbestosis in them, I have yes I know naughty, told people sorry not allowed to work on that, it has asbestosis in it, you can continue to use it, but not work on it, i.e. rewire or I am walking.

1966 the rules changed,

A circuit protective conductor shall be run to and terminated at each point in wiring and at each accessory except a lampholder having no exposed-conductive-parts and suspended from such a point.

remember to fit labels

: temp-label.jpg (92.88 KiB) Viewed 1280 times

i.e. watch your back.

Neelix · Post by **Neelix** » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:54 am

Welcome to the world of domestic lash ups

I would turn the socket circuit off for the garage and would expect the light to go out at the same time

Someone-Else · Post by **Someone-Else** » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:14 pm

I know it is easy for me to type, as I am not there, but when you go back, clear your mind, and don't rush and don't panic. Try drawing it all out in blocks or listing what does what
(I can't draw on a PC so.....)

1) 30A fuse -left socket, mid socket, socket in toilet.
2) 30A fuse - kitchen sockets, lounge rear sockets
3) 30A fuse don't know
4) 15A fuse socket in cupboard landing, loft light
5) 5A fuse down lights
6) Uplights and single outside light

LadySpark · Post by **LadySpark** » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:03 am

Thank you all so much! I really appreciate the time that you have taken.

I should have said electric shower - triton - on 10mm twin and earth. I got to the bottom of that with the burnt out switch that must be replaced. Resistance is around 0.7 ish. I hate thick cables and small backboxes.

Also didn't think to give layout of property. Garage is at the front and almost attached. It has 4 external walls but just touches next to the front door so no armoured cables. Kitchen extension is at the back. CU is in the hallway of the house by the front door. Kitchen extension wired forward to garage, across garage and then back through utility to avoid running cables through front room or hall.

Garage light remains live when all three lighting lines and the garage circuit are off. Garage freezer goes off. All house lights go off. Light remains live. Garage light has CPC which would lead me to expect it to be on the kitchen extension as that is the only light line with CPC.

I don't want to get a reputation for walking away. However, ericmark is right that there is no way on earth that the tiny job of changing light fittings and light switch plates in any way caused the shower isolation switch (which I didn't touch) to "get stuck". I even tried to show the customer the thick wires and explain that the electricity couldn't possibly come from the same line as the lights. It may well have not been working previously. Difficult customer as well. Wife is working from home and is hysterical that the power to her computer must not be turned off - which I had to in the end. Husband follows me around very closely. Nothing inappropriate sexually but either fascinated by my every move or worried that I'll steal something or most likely obsessed with protecting his immaculate and unforgiving dark matt paint. Had the most ridiculous exchange of views because he felt that I was wasting time (and I think he was worried that I would bash his decor) carrying my ladder around when he had a "better" ladder with a handrail - perfect for an elderly person, not so great for electric work. Unfortunately reputation is everything and, if I walk away, it will get around that I couldn't do the work, didn't know how to fix it etc. Just as customers base their ratings on how good you are at hoovering up after the job, they also rate based on whether you fix someone else's mess.

Neelix · Post by **Neelix** » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:41 am

My advice to you is simple. When you submit the invoice for your work just add on it

"I recommend you have this installation inspected as there as aspects of it that appear to require improvement"

This way you CYA and can't simple be accused of walking away - its up to the home owner to act on your advice (or not). We are NOT the electrical police and despite what one of the CPS's think we CAN NOT force home owners to make improvements.

Your duty is to leave the home safer - not completely compliant to the 18th Edition AMD 1

Out of interest which CPS are you a member of?

OnlyMe · Post by **OnlyMe** » Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:57 pm

LadySpark wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:32 am Help! I am absolutely perplexed by a customer's wiring.

Standard consumer unit, two bars, one RCD. Kitchen extension has been added so kitchen and utility lights on one side of consumer unit, kitchen and utility sockets, cooker and shower in utility on the other side with the RCD.

I was asked to change lights and switches to metal. Arrived and found no earth wire in old lighting circuits up and down in the house but kitchen extension did have PCP on light line. Quoted for rewiring and customer doesn't want to pay so much "just changing a few light fittings and switches". I agreed to fit replacement plastic light fittings and plastic light switches. One of those immaculate show homes where you don't dare leave the tiniest mark around the switch or a single crumb on the floor. Customer seemed satisfied and paid.

Next day I get a call that the shower and garage light stopped working. Customer genuinely believed that the shower was "on the same electricity" as the lights so it is my fault. OK, external isolator switch stuck in the on position so must have burnt on the inside. I can replace that.

Garage light doesn't seem to be on any circuit! Certainly not any of the three lighting lines. However, I really wish I had not set foot in the garage!

Whoever did the kitchen extension ran all wires along the garage roof using clip direct. No metal bands but its not a fire escape route. Just wires everywhere. I think I figured out which was cooker, shower, sockets and extension lights. Garage light is on none of these, nor on the upstairs or downstairs lines. There is a REALLY old wylex fusebox in the garage. No MCBs or RCDs just the old wylex fuses. Only the garage freezer seems to be running from this. Not the garage light. The only way I could cut power to the garage light was to turn off the main switch at the consumer unit. Turning off light MCBs did nothing to cut power, nor did turning off wylex.

I just do not understand this wiring at all! I have stared at it for ages, followed wires, tested, searched for more hidden connections and can't figure out how this house is wired. The garage light has an earth wire, so I was expecting it to be on the kitchen lights line - illogical based on location - but it is not as it remains live when those lights are definitely powered off at the consumer unit.

HELP PLEASE!!!! What do you do when you just can't figure it out? I embarrassed myself and have to return on Saturday as I'm fully booked all week.

Just walk away and tell them goodbye.