Downlighters in kitchen

[croggy]

I replaced, with mains voltage led lamps, over a dozen or so 12 volt downlighters in the kitchen. Took off the transformers, found lamp holders that would fit the existing holes, and connected up. Not fire rated. Will this pass an EICR as there weren't any fire rated d/l's before, and this was just a change of lamps to led.

[wine~o]

croggy, If there is living accomodation above the kitchen then fire rated downlights are required.

[Neelix]

croggy, If there is living accomodation above the kitchen then fire rated downlights are required.

Not sure I agree with this.

If the room above the kitchen is part of the same dwelling, then they do not need to be fire rated. That said I havve fitted fire rated for many years in all circumstances

[ericmark]

An EICR should in theroy be only about the installation, the equipment is inspected with inspection and testing of in service electrical equipment, often called PAT testing although to be portable it either needs wheels or under 18 kg, however normally the lights are the odd one out and are included with the EICR.

Look in BS 7671 and we have

Electrical equipment (abbr: Equipment). Any item for such purposes as generation, conversion, transmission, distribution or utilisation of electrical energy. Such as machines, transformers. apparatus, measuring instruments, protective devices. wiring systems. accessories, appliances and luminaires.
Electrical installation (abbr: installation). An assembly of associated electrical equipment having co-ordinated characteristics to fulfil Specific purposes.

So in theroy equipment is part of the installation, and the building regulations say

“electrical installation” means fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter;

So it is really up to the guy doing the EICR as to what he considered is part of the report.

What often causes a problem is "A circuit protective conductor shall be run to and terminated at each point in wiring and at each accessory except a lampholder having no exposed-conductive-parts and suspended from such a point." this started in 1966 with "D.6 At every lighting point an earthing terminal shall be provided and connected to the earth-continuity conductor of the final sub-circuit." in fact before that date back to 13th edition the exemption was only for "filament lamps" so since using LED which don't have a filament that earth is required, yet often left out when converting from extra low voltage to low voltage, and of course today needs RCD protection as well.

The other is not having the outer clamped within any junction box, many conversion kits have the primary insulation exposed, however the wording of the EICR is not does not comply with the current edition of BS 7671 that was dropped, it now say dangerous or potentially dangerous and lets face it, 230 volt is always potentially dangerous, so it is down to the whim of the inspector.

He can, and it has happened in Pembrokeshire where an electrician was taken to court and found guilty for not finding faults, however if the faults are listed but coded as a C3 it would be harder to say he was at fault. However it does mean electrician tend to list thinks which may by others not be considered as part of the EICR.

However it is an electrical report, not a fire report, and electricians also need to be careful to keep within their remit, so missing smoke alarms can't really fail an EICR but those which are smashed could, but being out of date is not really any thing to do with an EICR, the problem is to test a smoke alarm one needs a smoke generator, and I don't want to carry one of those around, so better to keep within my remit, and not refer to items outside the remit.

The same applies to other trades and professions, if some one does a house buyers report and they refer to any electrical system, then it could be seen as an EICR, so they need to be careful and state it is not an EICR, the same goes for electricians referring to things outside their remit.

One problem is clearly the boiler is fixed, it is not portable or moveable, but often one needs to be gas safe to remove the covers, so to follow the building regulations definition opens up a can of worms, which any electrician with some sense wants to avoid. So I state clearly only the insulation is part of this report, for equipment see the inspection and testing of in service electrical equipment.

But I have seen codes given to out of date smoke alarms, and too many items plugged into a socket, so not every inspector does that.

[Someone-Else]

the problem is to test a smoke alarm one needs a smoke generator,

Really?

test.jpg (6.43 KiB) Viewed 606 times

Then why do smoke alarms have test buttons? Oh yes, it is so the occupant can press it to test the smoke alarm.

Fire alarm smoke detectors can have artificial smoke to test them, as they have no test button.

one needs a smoke generator

spray.jpg (8.82 KiB) Viewed 606 times

I wouldn't find this a problem to carry around, but it is NOT meant for smoke alarms, as they have a Test Button

[ericmark]

A RCD also has a test button for testing, but as part of an EICR one would test tripping time and tripping current. Not simply press the test button. It is not my job to test a smoke alarm, all I am interested in is electrical safety.

[Someone-Else]

But you were the one who said

the problem is to test a smoke alarm one needs a smoke generator,

So you are saying that the home owner must buy a "smoke generator" to test their own smoke alarm, I don't think so. You were just in error. Forget it and move on.

[croggy]

Just to be clear then, there is no legal requirement for fire rated downlighters in a kitchen with a bedroom above if the kitchen and bedroom form part of the same dwelling unit.

[Someone-Else]

Its your house do as you like, BUT since most decent downlights are fire rated, seems daft not to install them, specially considering its a bedroom above.

[dewaltdisney]

Just an observation from someone who does not know electrics well but do LED lights produce the same heat and therefore is there still a requirement for fire rating?

DWD

[Someone-Else]

Just saying: Fire rating of a light fitting has nothing to do with how hot the lamp gets. A fire rated light fitting is used to maintain the integrity of the ceiling in which it is installed, so preventing flames from spreading from one floor to the other.

[dewaltdisney]

Oh I see, I remember in the past reading about some fireproof bags and flower pots over the lights between floors. I see that there must be some way of preventing fire spreading upward from below. I never really understood it.

DWD

[Someone-Else]

Fire proof bags, good description . They were called "Fire hoods" you can still get them, but most manufacturers make their downlights as fire rated. To you and me, they make it from metal with a metal flange (forgot the right word) but if it had a plastic flange which some do, the flange will melt in a fire, fall out, and so leave a hole which means flames can go up said hole.

Odd thing is, often fire rated lights are put in places that don't require them, such as the hall, or 1st floor bedrooms. Neither of these require them as it's pointless. If there is a fire in the hall, what is to stop the flames going up the stairs, likewise in the bedroom, there is no accommodation above a bedroom so it doesn't matter if the fire gets through. Yes its not nice, but it doesn't save life either.

Flowerpots were used as "its a cheap alternative" but all it did was concentrate the heat through the hole and melt the cable that came through said hole. Remember this was when people had halogen lamps that did get very hot.

Nowadays most, not all downlights are made as fireproof as It's almost as cheap, and you only need to make one light instead of two. (One fire proof one not fire proof)

Some downlights have fire seals, to you and me that means they expand when exposed to flames, sealing the hole.

[Neelix]

There is no need for fire rated fittings within a single dwelling

[dewaltdisney]

Is that a single story or a detached house?

DWD