so free isnt good enough and neither is a cheap loan? you want them to pay higher interest too.... even though they will end up paying more in PAYE & NI later in life?JK Decorator wrote:FREE?? You mean the government pay = Tax rise
Its not like the 'loans' students get are realistic.
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Student Fees
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Re: Student Fees
Raf
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Re: Student Fees
Lol, its not a "desperate battle", but its in no way comparable to doing a couple of nights a week at night school and you do have to be resigned to the fact that you are going to come out with massive debts unless you have a rich family to support you.Raf wrote:come on now fella put the violin away; you were doing well until you decided to paint Uni life as a desperate battle.Joeman wrote:
I doubt that any professional on this forum has moved away from home and dedicated three whole years UNPAID to get to where they are now unless they have studied for a degree.
As tough as night school may be, at least you have an income from your day job and and can return to your family.
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Re: Student Fees
big day today for MP's as they vote on Tuition fees rising:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11954333
But ive had a better plan!
Why not abolish fees all together. This will allow more people to go to uni which will in turn mean there are more jobs available for the people who dont want to go to uni, and thus reduce unemployment!
Im guessing to keep a 'dole sponger' and his wife & kids on benefits in a FREE house is more expensive than sending a student to uni, and the money is much better spent on education than benefits cheques.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11954333
But ive had a better plan!
Why not abolish fees all together. This will allow more people to go to uni which will in turn mean there are more jobs available for the people who dont want to go to uni, and thus reduce unemployment!
Im guessing to keep a 'dole sponger' and his wife & kids on benefits in a FREE house is more expensive than sending a student to uni, and the money is much better spent on education than benefits cheques.
Joeman
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Re: Student Fees
it doesnt matter how we feel this policy is still going through and will never be reverted no matter how "rich" the country becomes in the future.
like you said soft targets and all that.... but hey ho...
like you said soft targets and all that.... but hey ho...
Raf
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Re: Student Fees
Post by kellys_eye »
I'm impressed by your selective (and creative) use of 'facts' to support your arguement. £47k is waaaaay above the average of what any student may owe at the end of their course. This figure is based on the annual (capped) maximum fees of £9,000.Now given that at the age of 17 most kids cant even comprehend how much £47,000 is do you really expect many to commit to such high predicted debts???
thank you.So to answer your question, yes uni has always been available to everyone,
The numbers of 'banks of mum and dad' are not infinite. In fact, proportionally, they form the lesser part of all students at uni. Besides, this makes your attitude "I don't care WHO pays so long as it's not me...." - charming.but the kids who can borrow from the "bank of mum and dad" are much more likely to take the plunge than those from a less well off family who have to borrow from the state/banks to finance their living costs.
So, on the one hand you agree with me then immediately contradict yourself?High tuition fee simply push uni education out of reasonable reach for the average UK kids.
Quite handy that you should select Saudis as your example of foreign students. This is the same country that gives newly married couples a house - gratis. Saudis are, perhaps, the worst example anyone could cite as 'typical' overseas students. Most of them would BUY your flat if you offered them the chance - let alone rent it.Other countries see education as an investment and even go so far as to finance their kids to move countries to get educated - I know this for a fact as i rent flats to a students from Saudi Arabia - their government not only pay their tuition fees, but they also pay their rents (my mortgages!) as well as provide reasonable living allowance.... the UK would rather finance dole spongers who will never benefit society.
I don't argue that graduates aren't good for the country - they are and we need the best. If uni's were more strict on their intake and on the quality of education (they've fallen as badly as state schools as far as educational levels are concerned) then the limited resources they had would benefit those who really want to be there. What percentage of uni applicants actually complete (pass) their course? (IIRC it's around 40-50%). University is NOT for everyone.
Don't take it personally......
kellys_eye
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Re: Student Fees
lets meet in the middle:
anyone doing a "beckham" degree should pay for it but if say you're doing chemical engineering then we, the tax payer, should pay including all the equipment & books required for the course.
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anyone doing a "beckham" degree should pay for it but if say you're doing chemical engineering then we, the tax payer, should pay including all the equipment & books required for the course.
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Raf
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Re: Student Fees
Post by kellys_eye »
Raf wrote:lets meet in the middle:
anyone doing a "beckham" degree should pay for it but if say you're doing chemical engineering then we, the tax payer, should pay including all the equipment & books required for the course.
Happy to agree with that.
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Don't take it personally......
kellys_eye
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Re: Student Fees
My business partners boy, was offered a place at three universities, before he decided which one, there was also a couple of large Companies trying to poach him on a 5year contract, whereas they would pay all his fees, plus a salary, and he would work x days for them during break time.Raf wrote:lets meet in the middle:
anyone doing a "beckham" degree should pay for it but if say you're doing chemical engineering then we, the tax payer, should pay including all the equipment & books required for the course.
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One of the lucky ones, did he go about it the right way, or are the larger outfits looking for the top students each year.
Should they pay or not is a good question.
Why the hell should I slave away for 50 years paying every increasing taxes, to sponsor, toe rags, lazy good for nothings, kiddie breeders, mps, europe, and every tosser that wants a share.
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And just to rub it in the robbing barstewards still tax my Pension
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Which part of we can't afford it, don't you understand, the Country is bankrupt, the gravy train has run dry.
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thescruff
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Re: Student Fees
I agree with John above.thescruff wrote:Why the hell should I slave away for 50 years paying every increasing taxes, to sponsor, toe rags, lazy good for nothings, kiddie breeders, mps, europe, and every tosser that wants a share.Raf wrote:lets meet in the middle:
anyone doing a "beckham" degree should pay for it but if say you're doing chemical engineering then we, the tax payer, should pay including all the equipment & books required for the course.
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If the Degree gets the person a position where they actually use it that's fine, I disagree with someone spending 3 years sitting on their fat backsides then getting a job they would have got without going to Uni.
My first daughter trained as a solicitor and my wife and I both worked overtime to help her through, she is now a full partner and doing well.
One of those I mentioned her OH sits at home looking after the baby, has no time too cook as babysitting is a full time task according to him, oh and HE has a arty farty degree, and has never had a job since Uni.
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That is what gets my goat, people like me and the scruff (and others on here like Chez) trained for a skilled artisan type vocation, we worked and proved our worth. My Navy Training was a 2 year full time course to HNC equivalent, I then went on to do a Post Graduate Management Degree (next step MBA if I wished) in my own time my firm paid all fees on passing and completion as it was beneficial to them. I had to make up the hours on Friday afternoons when the rest of the firm were on overtime.
John
Growing old is compulsory, growing up is not!
EJJ150847
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Re: Student Fees
Why did the lib dems say that they were against charges but then change their minds when they were elected although a good few did vote against it, i can see why the students are angry but dont agree with rioting 
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diyguys
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Re: Student Fees
Post by scot-canuck »
Thats all well and good, however the problem right now is a total and utter lack of graduate jobs, thus meaning many end up stuck working dead end jobs through no fault of their ownEJJ150847 wrote: If the Degree gets the person a position where they actually use it that's fine, I disagree with someone spending 3 years sitting on their fat backsides then getting a job they would have got without going to Uni.
One of the lucky few then, Law graduates have about as hard a time now as IT graduates in terms of finding work (both used to be sure fire choices for finding a job at the end of the course)EJJ150847 wrote: My first daughter trained as a solicitor and my wife and I both worked overtime to help her through, she is now a full partner and doing well.
Lets see I did a full time HNC Course in 1 year while working 2 part time jobs at night, I then did an HND (with another HNC as the first year) again while working part time on top over 2 years, I looked for work, however this was right after 9/11 and grad jobs were at a lower level than even now, so I went to university and did 2 years and left with a BSc from a good university. Had issues still finding a graduate placement, and was advised that taking some time out travelling to gain some "life experience in the wider world" would be a good option. 2 years later having lived and worked in 2 other countries, and still no luck.EJJ150847 wrote: That is what gets my goat, people like me and the scruff (and others on here like Chez) trained for a skilled artisan type vocation, we worked and proved our worth. My Navy Training was a 2 year full time course to HNC equivalent, I then went on to do a Post Graduate Management Degree (next step MBA if I wished) in my own time my firm paid all fees on passing and completion as it was beneficial to them. I had to make up the hours on Friday afternoons when the rest of the firm were on overtime.
So £15K later in hock to HM Govt I still can't find work that uses my learned skills in civilian life (as some may know I was medically discharged from the RN during Initial Officer Training (My chosen branch was only open to those joining as an officer with a degree, no option for progression from rating.) )
So I'm looking to retrain as an electrician through the C&G route, which again is another gamble but better than being stuck in Tescos. Still bugs me though that I get lumped in with the scroungers and layabouts despite trying to make the wisest choices I could based on the info I was given.
If I had been faced with £9K of fees a year when I left school I probably would have ended up stuck in Tescos long term as when I left school in 1999, very few apprentices were being taken on in this area and the advice from most quarters was to get some further and preferably higher education qualifications under your belt for the so called forthcoming "knowledge" economy. However coming from a family of factory workers and construction workers, I wouldn't likely have been willing to saddle myself with £36,000 + cost of living debts so say £52,000 total debt.
Scruff - If we are so broke then where did the X Billion pounds we are sending to Ireland come from then? I will agree there are some noddy courses out there but not as many as the media like to portray especially given the range of degree subjects.
Also I've noticed that no one has mentioned the subsidies employers receive for taking on apprentices between 16 and 24/25 (well in Scotland at least) and the exemption they get from the national minimum wage. I know about the age limit for said subsidies as I applied for an apprenticeship at 26, after scoring highly on the SECTT test, got knocked back a few times and told that my age was the deciding factor as the govt wouldn't provide a subsidy so they would rather take on someone under 25 to get the subsidy even if they were a less able applicant.
Gone M.I.A.
scot-canuck
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Re: Student Fees
Watch all of it when you have an hour plus to spend, it may open your eyes a bit Scott.
The money we so kindly gave Ireland will be added to the debt we already can't afford.
britains-trillion-pound-horror-story-t35909.html
What the government should be doing is promoting real jobs for real workers with real skills.
The money we so kindly gave Ireland will be added to the debt we already can't afford.
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britains-trillion-pound-horror-story-t35909.html
What the government should be doing is promoting real jobs for real workers with real skills.
thescruff
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Re: Student Fees
Post by kellys_eye »
As usual, cherry-picking of facts is prevalent (got to admit that I'm probably guilty of this too but I try carefully not to....) and to quote £9k/year plus living expenses as a starting debt is disingenuous to say the least.
According to the Government (pass the salt please...) fees are CAPPED at £9k only under exceptional circumstances and most fees are capped at £6k. Adding living expenses is 'cheating' as you'd be paying them whether at uni, home or working.
This is possibly a case of determining whether a person is selfless or selfish. Those that genuinely enter uni to better themselves and their country (as some claim to do) are few and far between else they would happily pay the fees and accept any working wage thereafter.
Most uni entrants are of the selfish variety in that they want to improve their own lot in life - nothing wrong with that at all - and fully expect to enter into a workplace at 'degree wage level' irrespective of what position they take i.e. they are only in it for what they can get out of it.
I'm ok to finance the selfless student but would walk over hot coals to avoid the selfish variety that consistently think the world owes them a living and that others should pay for it.
According to the Government (pass the salt please...) fees are CAPPED at £9k only under exceptional circumstances and most fees are capped at £6k. Adding living expenses is 'cheating' as you'd be paying them whether at uni, home or working.
This is possibly a case of determining whether a person is selfless or selfish. Those that genuinely enter uni to better themselves and their country (as some claim to do) are few and far between else they would happily pay the fees and accept any working wage thereafter.
Most uni entrants are of the selfish variety in that they want to improve their own lot in life - nothing wrong with that at all - and fully expect to enter into a workplace at 'degree wage level' irrespective of what position they take i.e. they are only in it for what they can get out of it.
I'm ok to finance the selfless student but would walk over hot coals to avoid the selfish variety that consistently think the world owes them a living and that others should pay for it.
Don't take it personally......
kellys_eye
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Re: Student Fees
The coalition government has won the vote to raise tuition fees in England to up to £9,000 per year - amid violent protests in Westminster.
End of topic!
Thanks for some interesting points.
dave
End of topic!
Thanks for some interesting points.
dave
You can always tell a Yorkshireman,
But you cannot tell him much.
But you cannot tell him much.
dave.m
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Re: Student Fees
Get away Dave, there's a lot more mileage in the thread yet.dave.m wrote:The coalition government has won the vote to raise tuition fees in England to up to £9,000 per year - amid violent protests in Westminster.
End of topic!
Thanks for some interesting points.
dave
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thescruff
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