Non condensing boiler temperature flow

[billbod]

Hi All
Hoping for a bit of guidance regarding whether it is better to lower the boiler temp on a British Gas C1 boiler ( about 18 years old) and is a non condensing combi boiler) which I believe is a rebadged wocester.
I have heard that reducing the temp on a non condensing boiler will not really save you much money .
We have turned our boiler temp down to half way( no numbers on the boiler just pict of notches if you get what I mean). At this setting the rooms do heat up maybe 2 or 3 degrees an hour. Would turning the temp of boiler up higher result in rooms getting to temp quicker but without a big jump in cost.zI have searched on google but only seem to get condensing boiler reduce flow pages/ information.
Hopefully I have explained this correctly and someone more knowledgeable than me can point me in the right direction

Regards

Bill

[Someone-Else]

I would suggest the best way to answer your question is:

It doesn't just rely on your boiler, it depends on how well or not your house is insulated. I might live next door to you and have the same boiler as you but worse insulation, so someone somewhere says I will use less gas if I do as you suggest, truth is I will use more gas than you as my house is not as well insulated as your house.

So the truthful answer is take a note of your gas reading now, do nothing else, then in an hour take another gas reading, then do as you suggest and another hour later take another gas reading, then compare, not forgetting the question, do you feel just as comfortable in the 2nd hour.

[big-all]

my thoughts
you will use less gas per hour as your boiler output is less buuuuut your use will be more on average because your system needs more input to give the heat levels you need to heat the house to the level required so rather than than a steady flow off heat you have a very restricted level off heat

[Razor]

Do you cruise between sets of lights or mash the pedal to the floor, smoke up to it then slam the anchors on? It's pretty much the same question...

With any boiler it is a balance between how long it takes to get the house warm and cost. Speed costs more money

In this case if the flow temp is high you also get a cycle where the house overshoots the set point temp then drops below it.

On a combi set the flow temp to where the house gets warm enough for you in a reasonable time but the lower the better up to a point

[billbod]

I would suggest the best way to answer your question is:

It doesn't just rely on your boiler, it depends on how well or not your house is insulated. I might live next door to you and have the same boiler as you but worse insulation, so someone somewhere says I will use less gas if I do as you suggest, truth is I will use more gas than you as my house is not as well insulated as your house.

So the truthful answer is take a note of your gas reading now, do nothing else, then in an hour take another gas reading, then do as you suggest and another hour later take another gas reading, then compare, not forgetting the question, do you feel just as comfortable in the 2nd hour.

Thanks for your reply

I have been doing as you suggested for the past 2 months and also take daily gas usage readings
Hr 1 is costing around £1.76 on average
Hr 2 is costing around £2.70 total on average so around £1for 2nd hr not had the bottle to go for 3rd hr
We usually have heating on for 1 or 2 hrs at a time 3 times a day . The TRVs upstairs are set to no 2 whilst living room is set to 3.5 and office is set at 4 . Temperature gets to around 19 ish in living after heating has been on then takes 1 hr /1 1/2 hrs to drop back down to around 16.5.

It was just something I read that said if you have an old non condensing boiler then turning the temp down doesnt really save much as opposed to having it turned up high

Again thank for replying

Regards

Bill

[billbod]

Do you cruise between sets of lights or mash the pedal to the floor, smoke up to it then slam the anchors on? It's pretty much the same question...

With any boiler it is a balance between how long it takes to get the house warm and cost. Speed costs more money

In this case if the flow temp is high you also get a cycle where the house overshoots the set point temp then drops below it.

On a combi set the flow temp to where the house gets warm enough for you in a reasonable time but the lower the better up to a point

Thanks Razor

Is it better to run lower for longer?

We only ever have heating on for 2 hrs at a time , I am thinking of running maybe for 3 or 4 hrs at a lower setting and see what the cost is

We also do not have a room thermostat, is this something that would make things better in regards keeping house ticking over at a lower temp.

[billbod]

my thoughts
you will use less gas per hour as your boiler output is less buuuuut your use will be more on average because your system needs more input to give the heat levels you need to heat the house to the level required so rather than than a steady flow off heat you have a very restricted level off heat

Thanks Al

Yes I get what you mean. I have read so much about leaving on longer or on only when needed that my heads in a mush with it all.

[Razor]

The usual answer to the debate in this country at least is to have the heat on when you need it and off when you're not there.

Advances in house construction such as double glazing and insulation do blur the lines a little but simply put most houses in the UK aren't well enough insulated to leave heating on all the time.

A good compromise is to use a setback temp, you might want the air temp to be at 20 degrees when home but if the temp drops to 10 degrees whilst you're out it will take too long to recover so you get a thermostat that sets the temp to say 15 degrees during the day. You won't lose as much heat at that temp and the temp will recover quicker when the heating is on.

If you don't have a room thermostat you will be using 20-30% more gas than you need to for space heating and you will definitely be going through too hot/cold cycling

[billbod]

The usual answer to the debate in this country at least is to have the heat on when you need it and off when you're not there.

Advances in house construction such as double glazing and insulation do blur the lines a little but simply put most houses in the UK aren't well enough insulated to leave heating on all the time.

A good compromise is to use a setback temp, you might want the air temp to be at 20 degrees when home but if the temp drops to 10 degrees whilst you're out it will take too long to recover so you get a thermostat that sets the temp to say 15 degrees during the day. You won't lose as much heat at that temp and the temp will recover quicker when the heating is on.

If you don't have a room thermostat you will be using 20-30% more gas than you need to for space heating and you will definitely be going through too hot/cold cycling

We have been debating getting a room thermostat for ages.
I think because we have always used the heating when we need it ( so on /off as required) we felt that if we had a thermostat then heating would be on when we really didnt need it. Although I do get that it is benificial to keep the fabric of the house at a level where it is not freezing ( which we do, do)
With only having the heating on whilst at home we have used TRVs to get rooms to temp and once the living areas are warm we turn CH off.
I think I need to sit down with a heating engineer hav a beer and be educated, I have so many conflicting questions my heads in tatters

[aeromech3]

I think I need to sit down with a heating engineer hav a beer and be educated

.
You won't get the unbiased advice that Razor is giving and it does not cost a beer.
Your boiler whilst not condensing does modulate which is a plus, a room thermostat would be a sensible investment.

[billbod]

I think I need to sit down with a heating engineer hav a beer and be educated

.
You won't get the unbiased advice that Razor is giving and it does not cost a beer.
Your boiler whilst not condensing does modulate which is a plus, a room thermostat would be a sensible investment.

Thanks
Think me and the mrs better have another chat and see about a room thermostat. I think we can get a wireless one fitted onto this boiler if my memory serves me well.
Thanks for all your continued help/advice guys appreciate it

[aeromech3]

I live alone, I have these TRV's, the kitchen/dining is set to warm 4+, the lounge no TRV, the hall and bedrooms are at cool 2, the bathroom warm 3+; my wireless stat is mobile, during the day it sits with me in Kitchen, when I feel cool I tweak it a couple of degrees up, in the evening when I start to cook dinner I move it to the lounge so it feels the coolness and fires the boiler and the lounge warms up for my evenings tv viewing, the kitchen is warm so its TRV keeps the rad closed during this time. If I go out for a few hours I tweak it down 2 or 3 degrees, if for longer I put it to frost setting. I have a friend and like you had no room stat, he would time his heating and if he got cold would go upstairs to the cupboard and select on instead of timed; his rads would get scotching hot before he would go upstairs and select back to timed Eventually I convinced him to fit a room stat (actually a programed one) he still maintains he is not saving anything, but I say "Old boy at least you have less chance of falling on the stairs"; of course he is saving and more comfortable, also his old boiler and system works at a steady pace.

[billbod]

I live alone, I have these TRV's, the kitchen/dining is set to warm 4+, the lounge no TRV, the hall and bedrooms are at cool 2, the bathroom warm 3+; my wireless stat is mobile, during the day it sits with me in Kitchen, when I feel cool I tweak it a couple of degrees up, in the evening when I start to cook dinner I move it to the lounge so it feels the coolness and fires the boiler and the lounge warms up for my evenings tv viewing, the kitchen is warm so its TRV keeps the rad closed during this time. If I go out for a few hours I tweak it down 2 or 3 degrees, if for longer I put it to frost setting. I have a friend and like you had no room stat, he would time his heating and if he got cold would go upstairs to the cupboard and select on instead of timed; his rads would get scotching hot before he would go upstairs and select back to timed Eventually I convinced him to fit a room stat (actually a programed one) he still maintains he is not saving anything, but I say "Old boy at least you have less chance of falling on the stairs"; of course he is saving and more comfortable, also his old boiler and system works at a steady pace.

Thanks for your reply and sorry for the late reply

We do have a progammer on the boiler which we use for morning and evening at set times, plus we click it on for an hour in the afternoon if we are home and its a bit nippy.
The thinking about a room stat has been ongoing to be honest for a couple of years. We have only ever used the heating when we need it , but have always thought would it be more beneficial/economical to have a room stat so we keep house at a more consistant heat



Regads

Bill

[ericmark]

I realise there is a balance, the higher the temperature the faster it warms up the house, so less warm it time is required, but also the faster you heat up the house, the higher the hysteresis is, and the over shoot wastes energy.

Personally Autumn and Spring temperature set lower than Winter, and most my thermostats (15 in all counting the TRV's) are set as @Razor says with comfort and eco settings, so when a room is required, it is not starting from ambulant temperature, but an elevated level.

The wall thermostat is programmable, unfortunately it does not link to TRV's, but I set the wall thermostat down 0.5 deg for an hour before a room is required, then back up 0.5 deg so boiler will be running as rooms change temperature. This is less of a problem if the boiler modulates.

Most combi boilers modulate, either they must modulate, or have a water store, if the boiler modulates, not sure what the wall thermostat does? OK may seem silly, but if the TRV sets the room temperature, and the boiler will first modulate when return water gets warmer, then start a mark/space ratio to further reduce output, then only reason for a wall thermostat is to turn off boiler on warm days.

It clearly is not quite that cut and dried, but my wall thermostat is mainly there as a programmer, turning the heating on/off at times set, however since it does have a thermostat function, it also removed the need for a frost stat, and turns off heating on warm days.

In real terms there is no answer, as all boilers are not the same, with gas the on/off thermostat is really a relic of the past, today we want to control boilers with the ebus, but the problem is many boilers either don't allow ebus control, or only monitor one room when using it.

The real question is what TRV head? Many wall thermostat will link to TRV heads, and the TRV head is king, that's the bit which does all the work, all the wall thermostat does is relay the massages from the TRV's to the boiler, so down to selecting TRV's then adding a wall thermostat which will work with them.

So looking at cost v functions, if you have 5 bedrooms all going to be used at the same time, you pick the slowest to heat up, put a linked TRV in that room, at maybe £50 and other 4 rooms, a simply programmable type at say £15.

One can set a sequence with even just 10 minutes between them, kitchen, dinning room, then living room, so all heat at first to kitchen so rooms heat up in the order used.

But my house, 2 kitchens, two bathroom, two shower rooms, two living rooms, five bedrooms, plus utility room, hall, landing etc. Having the house heated room by room saves a lot of money, but a two up, two down house will be very different. My last house was open plan, so a single wall thermostat controlled most the house, same with one before that with hot air heating, since air circulating again one wall thermostat did whole house. I have zone valves and in the winter 4 rooms are seldom used. But it is the layout of your house which matters.

[billbod]

I realise there is a balance, the higher the temperature the faster it warms up the house, so less warm it time is required, but also the faster you heat up the house, the higher the hysteresis is, and the over shoot wastes energy.

Personally Autumn and Spring temperature set lower than Winter, and most my thermostats (15 in all counting the TRV's) are set as @Razor says with comfort and eco settings, so when a room is required, it is not starting from ambulant temperature, but an elevated level.

The wall thermostat is programmable, unfortunately it does not link to TRV's, but I set the wall thermostat down 0.5 deg for an hour before a room is required, then back up 0.5 deg so boiler will be running as rooms change temperature. This is less of a problem if the boiler modulates.

Most combi boilers modulate, either they must modulate, or have a water store, if the boiler modulates, not sure what the wall thermostat does? OK may seem silly, but if the TRV sets the room temperature, and the boiler will first modulate when return water gets warmer, then start a mark/space ratio to further reduce output, then only reason for a wall thermostat is to turn off boiler on warm days.

It clearly is not quite that cut and dried, but my wall thermostat is mainly there as a programmer, turning the heating on/off at times set, however since it does have a thermostat function, it also removed the need for a frost stat, and turns off heating on warm days.

In real terms there is no answer, as all boilers are not the same, with gas the on/off thermostat is really a relic of the past, today we want to control boilers with the ebus, but the problem is many boilers either don't allow ebus control, or only monitor one room when using it.

The real question is what TRV head? Many wall thermostat will link to TRV heads, and the TRV head is king, that's the bit which does all the work, all the wall thermostat does is relay the massages from the TRV's to the boiler, so down to selecting TRV's then adding a wall thermostat which will work with them.

So looking at cost v functions, if you have 5 bedrooms all going to be used at the same time, you pick the slowest to heat up, put a linked TRV in that room, at maybe £50 and other 4 rooms, a simply programmable type at say £15.

One can set a sequence with even just 10 minutes between them, kitchen, dinning room, then living room, so all heat at first to kitchen so rooms heat up in the order used.

But my house, 2 kitchens, two bathroom, two shower rooms, two living rooms, five bedrooms, plus utility room, hall, landing etc. Having the house heated room by room saves a lot of money, but a two up, two down house will be very different. My last house was open plan, so a single wall thermostat controlled most the house, same with one before that with hot air heating, since air circulating again one wall thermostat did whole house. I have zone valves and in the winter 4 rooms are seldom used. But it is the layout of your house which matters.

Thanks ericmark

We live in a 2 bed victorian terrace.
Upstairs main bedroom is set at 2 on the tvr
Spare bedroom at 2 this is an unused room but we have on 2 so the house doesnt get too cold
Bathroom is 2.5
Upstairs is usually warm enough using these settings

Main living room is set to 3 on 2 radiators
Kitchen is set at 2.5 and office room which is attached to kitchen is without a tvr as this is where wife spends her day working from and one rad should not have a tvr from what ive read , so at least I got that right hopefully .

Regarding the thermostat what you say regarding it just being used as an on off this is why we have up till now we have not had one.
We usually have heating on for maybe 1 and half hour in morning and evening which is on a programmer on the boiler itself and if cold in afternoon we whack it on for an hour. If the weather warms up we knock the timer off and use the heating as and when we feel like we need it.
Having only had 2 houses with central heating this is the way I have always used the heating I have however learnt about the correct use of tvrs from alot of reading and a builder friend who talked me through the gist of them.I struggle with written stuff to be honest and thats why I said I could do with someone to sit down with and give me answers to questions of which I have many haha



Is it more economical to have a thermostat and set it to say 17.5 for the office and leave heating on for longer. Will this keep house at a more constant temp and will it cost loads more or around the same price as having the house heating and then cooling

I realise our boiler is a modulating one as if we have heating on longer in afternoon the second hour is cheaper than the first if you know what i mean

We are heavily in credit with the gas so its not that we cant have heating on but want to use the heating in the most cost effective way whilst only spending what is needed.

Thanks to everyone for putting up with me and helping it is appreciated.

Regards

Bill