Waterbased satinwood help needed

[James29]

Hi, iv'e purely signed up to this forum because i need help (i hope thats ok). Ive been redecorating my flat, i'm not a profesional but i have done quite a lot of decorating in the past.

I have been trying to use waterbased satinwood (wrx trade) for the trim and i'm having a terrible time trying to get a decent finish. The brush marks are horrific, it looks like ive painted it with a hairbrush.

Ive tried damping down the surface, keeping a damp brush, thining the paint with floetrol and water at every conceivable ratio, ive tried wooster silver tip brushes and purdy monarch elite (made just about zero difference). loading on and laying off as fast as possible. Thick coats, thin coats. You name it i've probably tried it.

I tried painting directly over the old gloss (as the product suggests it can be used) but coverage was terrible.

Anyway i wet sanded all the trim with 120grit until it was perfectly flat, cleaned with sugar soap, rinsed with water, wiped down with isopropl alcohol and applied 2 coats of bullseye 123 primer which dried back really nicely without brush marks.

If anyone can shed some light on why im getting a horrific finish it would be apprecieated. Ive been through nearly 2 liters of this paint now and ive sanded virtually all of it off.

Thank you.

[dynamod]

Given the level of detail you mention, I can only point the finger at the satin being faulty. Some of these waterbased trim paints can go right off if they've been damaged by frost, or have been in storage a long time.

Getting a paint shop to run in in the centrifuge for a few minutes can help if it's old stock, as can paddle mixing the paint in situ.

Everything seems to have been covered, although if central heating is on, it can make these paints very hard work indeed. Cool rooms are always better during application.

[dewaltdisney]

I usually use a mini roller with a brush. It is all about speed and getting a good layer of paint on fast as water based thins out quickly. I use Johnstones Aqua in the main and I generally getca good finish.

DWD

[dynamod]

Waterbased paints are a steep learning curve, and an immediate transition from oil to water have caused all manner of problems, for trade and public alike.

Different WB paints apply slightly different, as there are pure acrylics and alkyd hybrids. I don't want to overcomplicate the issue, but it should be noted that this area of decoration still hasn't been universally adopted by the trade. It was the single biggest shift the trade has had deal with in decades, and things still aren't fleshed out.

Speed really is key, though in lower temperatures, it becomes less critical.

On the face of it, you've not done anything massively wrong. Indeed, your process sounds spot on. Damping the brush, and the surface being painted, will extend working times. Once a WB paint starts to set, you cannot go over any painted areas, or it will mark.

Hopefully some of this helps.

[James29]

They certanly are a steep learning curve, i can get almost mirror finishes with oil base just a shane it turns yellow within months.

Part of me wants to blame the paint but i know its possible to get an acceptable finish with acrylics.

Im not sure my speed is the problem, i've tried putting it on thick and laying it of within a couple of seconds (ive damped the brush before laying it off, ive tried with water and fresh paint). I think i'll ditch the floetrol, it just seems to make things worse.

Ive even weighed the paint to keep an eye on my thinning ratios. My brush seems ok but i might try cleaning it out with something a bit stronger than water and soap in case there is any residue i cant feel.

I might try the johnstones aqua and see if it helps.

[dewaltdisney]

Johnstones Aqua undercoat is a joy to use. I find it the perfect base for the finishing coat. Johnstones Aqua Gloss is not full on, it is a half gloss I would say, it cures hard over a week and is very durable thereafter. The satin is again half satin and is almost like a shiny matt. I generally use the gloss as I like the finish, it is thick and you can level it out (quickly) which is why I use rollers with a brush. Roll on lay off, move on. I am just an experienced amateur though so I would follow Dyno's guidance as he is a pro.

DWD

[dynamod]

+1 for the Aqua undercoat. It's lovely stuff. Their satin is quite heavy bodied, but levels out well. I'm not a fan of Aqua gloss, as it's just too much of a brush killer and was yellowing a bit rapidly.

The WB gloss sector is an oddity in all honesty. Very, very few of the waterborne glosses are there, as their sheen level isn't what you would expect, especially going from oil. Beckers and (I hate to say this) Dulux Trade waterbased glosses are way out in front, as is Behr, if you can find it.

Floeteol can cause issues if too much gets used. XIM conditioner was better, but judicious thinning to ease WB paint can be quite effective, despite the manufacturers of paint conditioners saying it doesn't work. It does, but go easy on the water.

Brush cleaner (the blue stuff) or methylated spirits will deep clean brushes. I'd personally go with meths.

It's not beyond the realm of possibility that you may have gotten a duff batch of satin. I remember Zinnser Permawhite being very hit and miss for a while in account of quality control problems. I've seen this issue more since the advent of WB trim finishes oddly enough.

[dewaltdisney]

The Aqua gloss is hybrid as it has a certain solvent content. It does kill brushes so I use Poundland and throw. I have never suffered yellowing, all the areas I have painted have held well.

DWD

[dynamod]

I've not used it in around a decade, so it'll have been reformulated I expect.

It did catch a fair amount of negative criticism on it's release, despite its strengths. It was way too oily and heavy, it simply destroyed brushes, and on certain jobs it did appear to yellow a bit early for comfort. But it was going in the right direction.

Most of these coatings have been reworked since first release, so a current comparison will be a bit meaningless I suspect.

[Tom d'Angler]

I'm afraid I'm still old school when it comes to painting woodwork... I still use oil-based. Yes, over time it does lose its whiteness, but I have found that takes long and longer as companies seem to be improving it. I always explain the differences between water- and oil-based to customers and give them the option and the majority still want oil-based.

[dynamod]

I normally use Crown Fastflow satin, and for all it has a slightly dull finish for satin, it works well, flows out and gives good results.

I used Johnsons WB satin in a hotel a few weeks back, and over Aqua undercoat it went on nicely. A bit different in application to Crown, but still a really nice finish.

I've not used WRX trade, but I'm wondering if it may be slightly thixotropic (not flowing and levelling) Their web site mentions crazing over caulk, which reminds me of Dulux Trade Diamond Satin. It went on fairly heavily and wasn't keen to flow out. It needed exceptional care to get good results on account of its lack of flow, and for all it's strengths, it could be a bit of a pig to get to grips with.

Pure acrylics tend not to flow as well and need very soft/fine tipped brushes to get around this issue. Hybrids are much better at levelling, but if you load them on, as you can with pure acrylics, runs, sags and curtains can result.

I would be inclined to use a Wooster Sulvertip or a Proform Contractor, as they have such fine flags, they will give the least brush marks. Many WB paints work best with a particular brush, which may be a blessing or a curse, depending on how you see it.