Spur dining room socket from kitchen ring

[LadySpark]

A customer lives in a flat with concrete walls and ceilings and wires encased in metal conduits. The customer would like a socket in her dining room. The flat is freshly decorated with wallpaper and she doesn't want the decor damaged. The metal conduits to the existing socket in the dining room are across the door from where she would like the socket so I would have to channel a long way. There are bends where the conduit goes around corners so I don't think I can even fishhook. There is a hollow partition wall between the kitchen and the dining room. There is a socket in the kitchen almost exactly on the other side of the wall from where she wants the socket.

It would be easy to spur from the socket on the kitchen ring to the other side of the wall in the dining room. Is this allowed? What warning sticker should be placed on the consumer unit?

[Neelix]

It would be easy to spur from the socket on the kitchen ring to the other side of the wall in the dining room. Is this allowed? What warning sticker should be placed on the consumer unit?

Sorry to be harsh but if you have up to date BS 7671 quals you shouldn't need to ask this ..................

[Argyll]

It would be easy to spur from the socket on the kitchen ring to the other side of the wall in the dining room. Is this allowed? What warning sticker should be placed on the consumer unit?

Sorry to be harsh but if you have up to date BS 7671 quals you shouldn't need to ask this ..................

You'd offer more by answering the question so other readers can find out as well.

[ericmark]

I have with commercial premises where is a three phase supply used warning stickers to show which phase were two phases are in one room, but it is not required, with a single phase supply there is no problem anyway.

I know we should have paperwork to show exactly what feeds what, but never seen that with domestic, as long as loop impedance is within spec, no problem.

Only way I can see a problem is with a communal kitchen where there is a different meter for kitchen and dining room, seems an odd question, so wonder what you have missed telling us?

The only reason not to feed from kitchen is if the socket would then be on same RCD as the lights, 314.1 Every installation shall be divided into circuits, as necessary, to: (iii) take account of danger that may arise from the failure of a single circuit such as a lighting circuit.

That is from old 2008 version, the idea is should one do something which results in a shock from a socket circuit it will not also plunge one into darkness, with homes split side to side with sockets, that has stopped the use of twin RCD consumer units one needs at least three, but third could be a RCBO for lights or sockets, as lights normally split upper and lower. But it seems little attention has been paid to that.

[ericmark]

You'd offer more by answering the question so other readers can find out as well.

For a non spark I would agree, even as a retired spark I know some changes, but only have the 2008 edition, clearly some 10 years out of date.

Sorry to be harsh but if you have up to date BS 7671 quals you shouldn't need to ask this ..................

Even after some 50 years in the trade I still have some questions as what is allowed by the regulations, the book does not say things in black and white in the main, but used words which leave room for interpretation. But the exam asks a direct questions so exam is easy.

It is an exercise in English comprehension for example:- The bi-colour combination green-and-yellow shall be used exclusively for identification of a protective conductor and this combination shall not be used for any, other purpose.
Single-core cables that are coloured green-and-yellow throughout their length shall only be used as a protective conductor and shall not be over-marked at their terminations, except as permitted by Regulation 514.4.3.
In this combination one of the colours shall cover at least 30 % and at most 70 % of the surface being coloured, while the other colour shall cover the remainder of the surface.
A bare conductor or busbar used as a protective conductor shall be identified. where necessary, by equal green-and yellow stripes, each not less than 15 mm and not more than 100 mm wide, close together, either throughout the length of the conductor or in each compartment and unit and at each accessible position. If adhesive tape is used, it shall be bi-coloured.

It seems odd to me that anyone could read that and think that multi core cables could be over sleeved. There is a full stop after purpose, yet is seems many plumbers could not see that full stop, and would use three core cable to the tank thermostat and use all three cores as live, there also seemed to miss 411.3.1 A circuit protective conductor shall be run to and terminated at each point in wiring and at each accessory except a lampholder having no exposed-conductive-parts and suspended from such a point.

I have one coming up, and since I don't have latest edition not sure of the answer, all my RCBO's were labelled on the box at type B, however after they were fitted realised they were curve B type AC, I was not unduly worried, as secondary protection, and very little likely to inject DC, however now having solar panels, which can under fault conditions inject DC, so do all my RCBO's need changing to type A?

If there was no change then since BS7671 is not retrospective they were not required, but once supply type is changed, this moves the goal posts. So do they require changing?

[LadySpark]

Well I have been made to feel stupid for asking the question and I still don't have an answer. Thanks guys.

It is not a communal kitchen. The kitchen is not on the same RCD as the lights. There are two RCDs in the consumer unit. The lights and smoke alarms are not on RCD just MCB (not RCBO). Required or not, I was planning to provide paperwork for the revised circuit with spur and to label the consumer unit so that nobody mistakenly thought that they had switched off the socket when they hadn't (even though locking off the whole power supply is the standard).

At risk of others taking the opportunity to call me stupid, I cannot find anything in my IEE book "electrician's guide to building regulations" that states explicitly that I cannot spur from a socket in the kitchen through a partition wall into the dining room. However, I *have a feeling* that this is not allowed but I cannot remember why or which regulations to refer to. I qualified years ago. My Part P book may well be out of date. Yes, I have the 18th book but it is not exactly easy reading. I am not thick (despite some thinking this because I asked the question instead of just going ahead when I wasn't sure) but I find the 18th Edition book difficult to wade through and hoped that it would be easier to ask someone.

My customer is back from holiday tomorrow. Does anyone have a sensible answer (other than I should already know)?

[ericmark]

Sorry only just read the reply, I see no reason not to, but like you I have a feeling I have read some where not permitted, I had the same with how close a socket can be to the sink, I was sure it was 1.2 meters, and it seems going back to the 14th Edition the regulations were more like what the on site guide is now, and there was a recommendation as to distance which has been dropped.

My own kitchens have two or more circuits supplying them, my front kitchen has lights, cooker, socket ring final and four sockets with battery back up that supply my freezers. The back kitchen also has 4 supplies, there is on odd FCU think back at one time it supplied an outside socket, and of course the lights, a cooker supply, a ring final supply, and one FCU battery backed for the central heating, the battery backed all fitted yesterday.

I think the FCU should have been a RCD FCU, but not yet read about the inverter to see if built in, but seems strange to fit two twin sockets in front kitchen with RCD built into the socket, and yet not have a RCD in the FCU in back kitchen?

I have looked in the back kitchen around the consumer unit, two isolators in the consumer units, two isolators stand alone for AC, two stand alone for DC around 230 volt when sun is shining, and an isolator built into the inverter, batteries only 54 volt so extra low voltage. So much for single point of isolation.

I do worry about the FCU, since everything else has RCD protection to have just the central heating without it seems wrong, the 230 volt supply not only feeds the boiler, but also two pumps, two motorised valves, two thermostats, and a relay, and one does not need a tool or a key to remove the cover from the central heating boiler which exposes the terminals. The firm came from Runcorn in England some 75 miles away, however since work in a kitchen needs notifying not sure about DIY, as although I can complete the minor works, if anything goes wrong with a heating guy touching a live wire, I don't want to carry the can.

[LadySpark]

Sorry only just read the reply, I see no reason not to, but like you I have a feeling I have read some where not permitted, I had the same with how close a socket can be to the sink, I was sure it was 1.2 meters, and it seems going back to the 14th Edition the regulations were more like what the on site guide is now, and there was a recommendation as to distance which has been dropped.

My own kitchens have two or more circuits supplying them, my front kitchen has lights, cooker, socket ring final and four sockets with battery back up that supply my freezers. The back kitchen also has 4 supplies, there is on odd FCU think back at one time it supplied an outside socket, and of course the lights, a cooker supply, a ring final supply, and one FCU battery backed for the central heating, the battery backed all fitted yesterday.

I think the FCU should have been a RCD FCU, but not yet read about the inverter to see if built in, but seems strange to fit two twin sockets in front kitchen with RCD built into the socket, and yet not have a RCD in the FCU in back kitchen?

I have looked in the back kitchen around the consumer unit, two isolators in the consumer units, two isolators stand alone for AC, two stand alone for DC around 230 volt when sun is shining, and an isolator built into the inverter, batteries only 54 volt so extra low voltage. So much for single point of isolation.

I do worry about the FCU, since everything else has RCD protection to have just the central heating without it seems wrong, the 230 volt supply not only feeds the boiler, but also two pumps, two motorised valves, two thermostats, and a relay, and one does not need a tool or a key to remove the cover from the central heating boiler which exposes the terminals. The firm came from Runcorn in England some 75 miles away, however since work in a kitchen needs notifying not sure about DIY, as although I can complete the minor works, if anything goes wrong with a heating guy touching a live wire, I don't want to carry the can.

Thank you Ericmark,

Like you, I have a feeling it is not permitted but cannot remember why or which regulations or find anything when I dusted off my tatty old books. I think that you will find that the distance between sockets and sink is only 30cm in 18th edition, though I would avoid that.

Regarding the lack of RCD on the heating in your back kitchen, lots of circuits have no RCD. I personally prefer the consumer units with two (or more) RCDs that cover everything but I believe that they are only actually required on circuits where someone may plug in something that is used outside so there is a pretty standard set up where the lights and heating and possibly built in oven and hob are one one side and the RCD only protects the socket rings on the other side of the RCD. It means that lights and heating and maybe the hob can trip the main switch if there is danger to life as the MCB protects equipment over people. It is not my preference and not how I would fit a new CU but I don't mark it down when certifying as it is legal in an existing installation.

If I don't have a definitive answer by Monday, I will probably spur from the kitchen socket, provide a circuit diagram and label the consumer unit. A significant proportion of my work is in empty rental properties. Unfortunately this flat is occupied, the householder will be home and it is newly decorated with wallpaper, by a professional who did not leave scraps of wallpaper for touch up so it it will be a massive job other wise. Whoever invented "walk-through" rooms with doors in two walls so you can't easily get from one socket to the opposing wall was clearly not an electrician.

[ericmark]

I am retired, so stopped buying BS 7671 at the 17th edition, although have noted the changes as they have been published, I did not keep the old editions, oldest is BS7671:2001 which we were told when published was the 17th edition with new BS number but still called 16th edition.

The BS7671:2001 was when RCD's needed outside the BS7671:2008 was when RCD's for all sockets, and if all RCD protected bonding in bathrooms was no longer required, so we had to RCD protect the lights.

Before 2008 it was common to split ring finals front/rear or side/side as it required less cable, so better loop impedance, and should one circuit fail, then to get temporary electric did not involve an extension lead up/down the stairs. But when we RCD protected the lights it was felt having lights fail if some one gets a shock from a socket was not good, so went to ring finals upper and lower to match the lights, other wise three RCD's would be required.

But the "(iv) reduce the possibility of unwanted tripping of RCDs due to excessive protective conductor currents produced
by equipment in normal operation" bit means we should test the back ground leakage, which should be less than 1/3 of the RCD rating, so with 30 mA it was 9 mA max, for me this was a problem as my clamp on only went to 0.01 amp. I now have one to measure 0,001 amp but only got it last year (it will also do DC) but not being able to measure the back ground leakage it was safer to use RCBO's as then it was highly unlikely the 9 mA would be exceeded. Specially with new installs where you can't measure the back ground leakage until too late.

The cables buried in the wall rules means today one has no real option, RCD sockets don't really cut it, however in Thursdays install cables between sockets were in trunking and to sockets in SWA, so RCD sockets do comply. But the cables after the FCU are buried in the wall, so would think they do need RCD protection, although it is a odd one, is it a new circuit, what defines new?

But morally it seems wrong to remove RCD protection from a circuit, it was protected, and it's not now, the cables which go up to main house change colour, from brown, black grey to red yellow blue and one core open circuit, clearly a hidden junction box in the wall some where, so I reversed the feed and fed from the flat where the boiler in up to house, and I used Nest Gen 3 so the cables are 12 volt DC very low amps, but the installers did not know that, for all they knew there are still low voltage cables buried in the wall going upstairs, they don't know they are extra low voltage.

I was surprised to see the panels are 250 volt DC I expected them to be under the 75 volt so classed as extra low voltage, the DC cables are in plastic conduit. But not buried so does not need type B RCD protection, that would be expensive.

The wiring diagram

Wiring diagram for solar.jpg (32.84 KiB) Viewed 1665 times

in the inverter manual actually says you can use type AC RCD's I would have thought at least type A. But a find in page hunt for RCD on the manual does not find any other mention of RCD's so seems non built into the inverter. I know often there are RCD's and RDC's (Residual Direct Current Detecting Device) built into EV chargers so wondered if fitted to the solar inverter.

As to your job I would have no qualms about that supply room to room, only is Wales could there be a problem in that work in a kitchen is notifiable, I would just go ahead. I now have 4 circuits in my kitchen, lights, cooker, ring final and EPS radial, not sure why now called EPS I have always called it a UPS?

[aeromech3]

The property I now live in has an attached garage, one of the earlier owners, a carpenter had professionally installed a garage consumer, taken off a CB in the house CU, with SWA and installed a ring of outlets and strip lights.I wanted to install a timed spur off one of the surface socket boxes, Isolated the garage MCB and the house CB; lucky for me I also tested the box, Live!! looks that the original house wiring took a spur from a kitchen outlet on the other side to this one garage box Have labelled the socket now.
Of course some houses have a split up and down some left and right, some all-sorts, a label inside this garage box would have alerted me to this odd wiring.
Hope you find an answer as I am sitting on the edge of my seat for the next installment L.S.

[ericmark]

Early days before 1980 I was asked to move a socket down the wall, it was in a street of houses on a steep hill, and the house I was working on as yet not occupied by new owners, so simply turned off the main isolator, lucky using a neon screwdriver, as socket still live, it was supplied from next door, since then I have always proved dead, and love my non contact voltage tester built into my clamp meter, not an approved method to prove dead, but a good second test where live parts not exposed until the unit is removed.