Ridge Tiles and Valleys

[zaffy]

Repoint Ridge Tiles : Length of house 10 metre long.
Repoint Ridge Tiles : Along 3 dormer windows.
Repoint lead valleys over front door porch.
Took two short days for one builder and assistant.
Price £1800
Son in law gone mad. "You paid what!!!!!!!!"
Who is mad, me or my son in law?

[Someone-Else]

Doesn't matter, you have paid it. Someone could always say "My mate would have done that for less than a grand" But that doesn't help because you don't know the mate, and would they have done it for £1k?

All I can suggest is, next time get several quotes and then after the job is done show your SIL the quotes and say "It was the lowest one, and I liked the bloke"

[zaffy]

It happened in a strange way. Damp stains on the ceiling and getting worse and so much rain promised, I advertised for quotes.

The first company said they would sort it for £750 and it would take a couple of days and they showed me videos of the problem and they could start the next day. A few loose ridge tiles and the lead valley either side of the porch needed repointing.

Other companies replied to my ad but I was happy with this first quote so I went with them.

They started the work. They had misjudged. All the ridge tiles needed replacing. The price was now £2160 with 50% up front because the price was over a £1000.

I also couldn't understand how the price had jumped so high because it still was going to take just two days. Sand and cement isn't that costly.

But they had already started. I didn't know what to do.

Somehow the price went down to £I800 and I refused to pay up front but paid £900 at the end of each day.

So confused about the whole scenario. For peace of mind, hoping someone will say "£1800 was a good price."

[dewaltdisney]

They were probably gypsies. This is a common con trick, quote cheap, start the job and suddenly find it is more complicated, price doubles. Sadly these people con a lot of old people in the same way. Always check out any tradesmen as much as you can.

DWD

[zaffy]

I was hoping that was not the case but nothing seemed to add up. Thank you.

[Someone-Else]

I advertised for quotes.

Might I suggest next time, you don't do that. The reason is, you are on a race to the bottom, none have seen the actual job, so you are leaving yourself wide open to cons.

Next time, no matter what the job is, get 2 quotes (make sure they are both going to do the same thing, not like with similar) and get the people to come and actually see the job, ask friends and neighbours for recommendations, and don't trust any checka or similar website, they are all cons too.

[zaffy]

Yes you are right. But this person did come to see the job. Took a vid with his camera and showed me the problem. A real happy enthusiastic chappie. He had a cancelation could fit me in right away.
On Checkatrade, he has a few reviews and they are all positive but for me nothing quite added up.

[Someone-Else]

Next time, NEVER trust anyone that has a cancellation and can fit you in right away (They are lying)
ALL reviews on checkatrade are positive, THAT is the problem, they do not allow bad reviews.

[zaffy]

will do. Thanx

[ffoxy99]

Sounds very high for 2 days work but you need to ask what they think they should make per day then add small cost of materials to this.

I do roof and gutter repairs and don't charge anywhere near this amount.

Lets say the guy in charge thinks he deserves to make £400 clear a day and his labourer £200 - for a full 8 or 9 hours with no long breaks

So that would be £600 a day, plus sand & cement (and cost of any tiles needing replaced)

Still sounds very high.

Another thing is most repointing jobs are absolute gash. They simply butter-up the existing failed mortar with a thin amount of new stuff which will crack and flake off in no time. Most jobs I go on have 2 or 3 versions of this.

To do it properly they should be taking off every tile, removing all the old mortar from it and re-bedding it all which is a huge job and one I've never seen done. You'd need a mixer on the go all day not just bucket mixes

I have went as far as raking out all the mortar from under the ridge tiles then packing new mortar in on a full ridge or if it's just a few tiles re-bedding them but to do a full ridge like that would be uneconomical when it can all be replaced with a dry ridge/hip system these days.

Imo tradesmen prices nowadays are insane. A mate got something done on his car the other day (supplied the parts) and the guy took £200 for 2 hours work. Another guy wanted £600 for the same job.

My pal is taking £700 a day for laminating a couple of small rooms and the cost of materials is only around £200-£240 and he sneaks of to do other jobs while his labourer on £100 a day does all the tricky bits
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old mortar raked out fully

DSCF6554.JPG (289.39 KiB) Viewed 334 times

new mortar packed in

DSCF6555.JPG (288.83 KiB) Viewed 334 times

re-bedding tiles

DSCF4678.JPG (341.92 KiB) Viewed 334 times

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Actually, after re-reading your original post (short days etc) I think they are criminals and I should be doubling or tripling my own prices and lowering my standards

[Someone-Else]

@ffoxy99 Just saying, the question was asked 3 months ago, the argument has probably finished by now. (Best check the date a thread was last active first. )

[ffoxy99]

It happened in a strange way. Damp stains on the ceiling and getting worse and so much rain promised, I advertised for quotes.

The first company said they would sort it for £750 and it would take a couple of days and they showed me videos of the problem and they could start the next day. A few loose ridge tiles and the lead valley either side of the porch needed repointing.

Another point (which I can't prove but firmly believe) is that you never get leaks from ridge or hip tiles. I've been on loads of roofs where there are gaps between the ridges (mortar missing) and the customer isn't getting water in. Sometimes with ridge tiles missing altogether.

The worst places for leaks are areas where water is rushing down - such as lead-flashings. Evan a pinhole or hairline-crack here will let water in. If you have a gap on a ridge only the raindrops which land directly in that hole will be a problem I guess.

Lead valleys etc should never be pointed. They act like gutters and it's the small upturn at the edges of the lead (under the tiles) which stops water running sideways off the lead into the roof-space. You don't need mortar or expanding foam under there but see it all the time. It can actually trap water behind it.

If the tiles are heavily-profiled birds and leaves can get in under the tiles at the flashings but there are plastic 'fingered' guards that can be put under to stop this.

[zaffy]

Actually, after re-reading your original post (short days etc) I think they are criminals

You hit the nail on the head on all counts.

Much happened before and after my original post.

I, a retired female, originally booked three quotes. The first company, which is the company in question, turned up the very next day, and went up
on the roof and came down with a mobile video showing me a few loose ridge tiles, which would need repointing and the valleys at the back of the dormers needed repointing too.
Two days £875 and they would email me the quote.

They drove away in their newish sign posted van with surveillance team written on the sides, and five minutes later came back and said they had just had a cancellation and could fit me in tomorrow (a Saturday).

They were so nice, and a lot more rain was due, and I felt fortunate that they had had a cancellation. It still seemed a little expensive but somehow I felt it was an offer I couldn't refuse.

The next day, past 10:00 o'clock, they turned up and started on the roof and I went to the shops.

When I returned from the shops, the main man said 'it was all a disaster up there and a far bigger job than anticipated.'
I questioned that they had already surveyed the roof so how come they had missed the fact that all the ridge tiles were loose. He had many answers.

The job was now going to cost £2,500 including vat (I later learn the company is not VAT registered).
He also wanted 50% up front, 'standard practise' he said.
I refused and we haggled over the price and I felt I had negotiated well to get him down to £1,800.

I am at this time completely befuddled, especially when on asking how long it would take, the answer was still two days??

They packed up at shortly after 3 o'clock and I paid them by BACS £900 for the one day. It's strange, I was completely taken over by psychological tricks. He was cleverly nice, and being deeply offended when I dared to question.

When they left, I breathed and came to my senses. I rang him later that evening, and told him not to return. Again he was offended.

The next day two of them came to pick up their ladders, and I asked them exactly what they had done, apart from repointing some of the ridge tiles that were obvious from ground level (approx 14) and they said they had repointed the 3 valleys at the back of the dormers.

I then posted on Ultimate Handyman. My opening post was brief because I didn't want to confuse the issue. Just wanted confirmation that the price was ridiculously high.

I decided to forget about the whole disaster and the bloody roof could collapse for all I cared. All too stressful.

A few days later - another roofer appeared on my property. I'd asked for quotes hadn't I? I apologised that I had forgotten to cancel, and told him what had happened and I wasn't prepared to employ another roofer ever.

He was intrigued and got his ladder. He was horrified. None of the old pointing had been removed and they had repointed just one and half valleys. But worse than that, they had deliberately dragged down some of the roof tiles and left them resting in the gutter.

These concrete tiles, I am told, are so heavy that they do not slip, the weight alone holds them in place. And why hadn't the rogue roofer mentioned the fact?

The roofer managed with great difficulty to shove the concrete tiles back in place.

Presumably the rogue roofers were creating more work for themselves for the next day. I can imagine him now with his mobile showing me videos 'look all your tiles are slipping off the roof!!!!'

I rang Citizens Advice and they suggested I ring my bank.

My bank's fraud department took my case very seriously and although I did not pay by credit card, they refunded me the £900, and in turn said they would charge the rogue roofer's bank who in turn will charge the rogue roofer. They said it came under doorstep fraud.

Citizens Advice also informed Trading Standards but I have not heard back from them.

A long story, with heroes and villains, but maybe it will, if ever read, help someone.

[dewaltdisney]

I am sorry to hear your story. It is a common fraud, and I have known others get caught in the same way. It was good you got a refund from your bank; it restores faith somewhat. Trading Standards is largely ineffectual these days, and it is a far cry from how it used to be 30 years ago. You know, you can always come on here to get advice. Whatever it is, we can give you a view and hopefully steer you in the right direction.

DWD

[ffoxy99]

Actually, after re-reading your original post (short days etc) I think they are criminals

You hit the nail on the head on all counts.

Much happened before and after my original post.

I, a retired female, originally booked three quotes. The first company, which is the company in question, turned up the very next day, and went up
on the roof and came down with a mobile video showing me a few loose ridge tiles, which would need repointing and the valleys at the back of the dormers needed repointing too.
Two days £875 and they would email me the quote.

They drove away in their newish sign posted van with surveillance team written on the sides, and five minutes later came back and said they had just had a cancellation and could fit me in tomorrow (a Saturday).

They were so nice, and a lot more rain was due, and I felt fortunate that they had had a cancellation. It still seemed a little expensive but somehow I felt it was an offer I couldn't refuse.

The next day, past 10:00 o'clock, they turned up and started on the roof and I went to the shops.

When I returned from the shops, the main man said 'it was all a disaster up there and a far bigger job than anticipated.'
I questioned that they had already surveyed the roof so how come they had missed the fact that all the ridge tiles were loose. He had many answers.

The job was now going to cost £2,500 including vat (I later learn the company is not VAT registered).
He also wanted 50% up front, 'standard practise' he said.
I refused and we haggled over the price and I felt I had negotiated well to get him down to £1,800.

I am at this time completely befuddled, especially when on asking how long it would take, the answer was still two days??

They packed up at shortly after 3 o'clock and I paid them by BACS £900 for the one day. It's strange, I was completely taken over by psychological tricks. He was cleverly nice, and being deeply offended when I dared to question.

When they left, I breathed and came to my senses. I rang him later that evening, and told him not to return. Again he was offended.

The next day two of them came to pick up their ladders, and I asked them exactly what they had done, apart from repointing some of the ridge tiles that were obvious from ground level (approx 14) and they said they had repointed the 3 valleys at the back of the dormers.

I then posted on Ultimate Handyman. My opening post was brief because I didn't want to confuse the issue. Just wanted confirmation that the price was ridiculously high.

I decided to forget about the whole disaster and the bloody roof could collapse for all I cared. All too stressful.

A few days later - another roofer appeared on my property. I'd asked for quotes hadn't I? I apologised that I had forgotten to cancel, and told him what had happened and I wasn't prepared to employ another roofer ever.

He was intrigued and got his ladder. He was horrified. None of the old pointing had been removed and they had repointed just one and half valleys. But worse than that, they had deliberately dragged down some of the roof tiles and left them resting in the gutter.

These concrete tiles, I am told, are so heavy that they do not slip, the weight alone holds them in place. And why hadn't the rogue roofer mentioned the fact?

The roofer managed with great difficulty to shove the concrete tiles back in place.

Presumably the rogue roofers were creating more work for themselves for the next day. I can imagine him now with his mobile showing me videos 'look all your tiles are slipping off the roof!!!!'

I rang Citizens Advice and they suggested I ring my bank.

My bank's fraud department took my case very seriously and although I did not pay by credit card, they refunded me the £900, and in turn said they would charge the rogue roofer's bank who in turn will charge the rogue roofer. They said it came under doorstep fraud.

Citizens Advice also informed Trading Standards but I have not heard back from them.

A long story, with heroes and villains, but maybe it will, if ever read, help someone.

Wow. I'm sorry to hear all this but think it's fantastic that you got money back. I wasn't aware this could be done and sincerely hope the roofers did have to pay it back.

I read your response in full and a couple of things struck me. Things I say to other customers.

If any tradesman gets vexed when you ask him a question abandon it immediately.

Most tradesmen (in Scotland anyway) are illiterate and have a chip on their shoulder about being 'spoken down to'. A lot of them also have ADHD or Dyslexia. Some spend all their money on Cocaine or cannabis. That's why they still live in ex-council houses/flats even tho they can be making £400 a day. They can't organise things properly. Can't do their tax return. Don't know what their actual profit is etc etc etc. I worked in HMRC for over 20 years and every one of them that called was helpless then aggressive.

If you ask them a question and their voice gets higher (ie less deep not louder) or they keep repeating something which doesn't make much sense they are lying.

The problem is if you need work done and they all present like this you may never get the work done.

The second guy does sound better but, being me, I think he's also a fibber as concrete tiles aren't that heavy. You can easily carry two at a time. If they have a huge lump of mortar on the underside (which is common) they can be a bit heavy for one hand but it sounds a bit suspect.