Hanging kitchen doors

[Alistair86]

Hi all,

I have recently started to learn how to fit kitchens as an apprentice.

Can anybody offer some advice on how to hang kitchen doors. I have done about four fits now, and just can't seem to get the hang of it.

My method is as follows. I always start by holding the door from the top, in the centre of the door so the weight of the door is even. With one hand I try to get the top hinge over the hinge-holes at the top of the unit. I start by drilling the top screw on the top hinge first. I then move onto driving a screw through the top hole on the bottom hinge so that the door is secure. I then put the screw through the bottom hole of the top hinge, and then the bottom hole of the bottom hinge.

I encouter the following problems again and again.

1) i get the first screw perfectly in the hole, but by the time I do this, the other holes are not visible through the holes in the hinge, which I believe should not be the case.

2) by the time I have hung both doors on a 1000 unit, I find that they are really badly aligned.

I understand that some adjusting is inevitable, but I just feel like the doors are too far out to begin with, and even with the adjustment, there is only a limited amount of play availabe, and sometimes even after using the maximum play, the doors are still out.

It is really getting me down , and I would really appreciate some advice. Maybe my approach is completely wrong in its entirety, or I am making a basic error.

I look forward to hearing from somebody who can advise.

Many thanks.

[ayjay]

It sounds like you have both parts of the hinge attached to the door to begin with.

I'm not sure why that should be a problem but I would try changing the routine to see if it helps.

Separate the hinges and fix one part to the door and the other part to the carcass - then bring them together and see how that goes.

If you're running out of adjustment and still not getting a good fit, it sounds more like the carcass is not fitted properly, check them for level - in every plane.

[kellys_eye]

Try making two drilling templates - that clip to the edge of the door and the inside of the cabinet - you can make one from a cabinet that you KNOW has been drilled correctly. These can be made from a small length of 40mm angle bar.

here's the idea I ran up in Sketchup.....

[ayjay]

In a rush this morning - - should have asked for a bit more clarity on what type of hinges, who made the kitchen etc.

Most of them are either pre drilled or at least spotted and just about impossible to get wrong.

[fin]

for standard kitchens (howdens etc) i seperate the hinges, fix the plates into the cabinets then put the hinges into the doors. i normally put my level on to help ensure they go in square. then screw em up. when i put them into the cabinets i allow a small gap of a few mm between the door and the cabinet. one bit of advice. check the doors for damage before you fit the hinges.

clip on hinges are wayyyyyyy easier

[royaloakcarpentry]

The fact that you have a fcuking pr1ck teaching you should be getting you down, not the fact that you are struggling!

1000 units can often be a pain in the neck to get the doors lining up. They tend to sag in the middle slightly and by a lot over time. That is why 2X500 units are better.

[Alistair86]

I'm overwhelmed by all the help, thank you all for replying and trying to help me out.

@ ayjay - Many thanks. I have tried to separate the two pieces that make the hinge. I screwed the hinges(whole) into the door to begin with, using a level to make sure they are straight. I then unclipped the bit that goes on the inside of the unit, and attached it to the unit (for both hinges). I then tried to clip the door into the unit but it did not work for me, I was on it for ages.

Today I had a few more doors to hang, and I did a much better job. I can't say that my findings are the be all and end all, but I think it comes down to two things based on my experience.

1) when the hinges are being screwed into the doors, they must be dead square. How I achieve this is by using a level, but that alone is not enough. I start with my first screw, doesn't matter which one. I then drive this in about 2/3 of its length, so that it is secure enough not to move, but not so tight that it knocks the hinge out of square. I then do the same thing with the remaining screw on that hinge. I then tighten both screws slowly, and it is as square as it can possibly be. I then repeat the above steps with hinge number 2.

I know for a fact that previously, i was tightening the first screw fully, and this was knocking the hinge out of square, which i believe was impacting on the hinge not being in line with the holes on the unit.

2) When I am screwing the door onto the unit, I am following a similar method with the screws. I put the first screw in the top hinge in, quite far in, but not fully tight i.e. about 3/4 of the way in. I then move onto one screw from the remaining hinge, and drive that in 3/4 of the way in. I then do the the same for the remaining screw on each hing, and then slowly tighten them up with a drill.

The end result is a door that needs adjusting just a touch. I'll be posting again within weeks to come to see if I am getting consistent results.

@ kellys-eye, thank you I find the idea of template's interesting, and would like to try this method. I would like to try this for doors, and also how to make templates for door handles, because that is the latest thing that I can't get my head around. I don't quite understand the diagram though do you think you might be able to post a pic of one?

@ fin, cheers. 'i allow a small gap of a few mm between the door and the cabinet'... I'm definately going to bare this in mind. I know sometimes I've not done this and the door doesn't close once they're in lol, and then it comes back to adjusting again.

The fact that you have a fcuking pr1ck teaching you should be getting you down, not the fact that you are struggling!

The fact that you have a fcuking pr1ck teaching you should be getting you down, not the fact that you are struggling!

1000 units can often be a pain in the neck to get the doors lining up. They tend to sag in the middle slightly and by a lot over time. That is why 2X500 units are better.

Hahaha, that's kind of annoying me too, but I'm just so inspired that I couldn't care less. I want to just focus on getting myself to the point where I can do the job. My teacher could definately be better, but it's just one of those things, need to bite my lip and crack on. I think I could have definately progressed much further than I have with a better teacher.

I look forward to any further replies

[royaloakcarpentry]

It takes two to be an apprentice.........the nobber and the experienced craftsman that has teaching in his ability and not all of us do.

The best tool you have at the moment is your eyes. You need to spend the next few years clocking how other people do the job and also how other trades work.

Ask questions too. whoever is teaching you at work should know answers there and then to what you ask. If they don't, then they probably shouldn't be teaching you.

[Alistair86]

It takes two to be an apprentice.........the nobber and the experienced craftsman that has teaching in his ability and not all of us do.

The best tool you have at the moment is your eyes. You need to spend the next few years clocking how other people do the job and also how other trades work.

Ask questions too. whoever is teaching you at work should know answers there and then to what you ask. If they don't, then they probably shouldn't be teaching you.

to be honest, you're a 100% right, and you've identified the biggest problem I've had.... the teacher. I ask questions but he makes no effort in trying to give me a helpful answer. I believe as a teacher, one should try to identify where a studen is struggling and to try to explain it in a way that will help clarify the whole mechanism in the student's mind.

For example, there have been times where the doors need adjusting, and in the early days I've tried and I've not done it right. What he then does is comes and starts adjusting, stands right in front of the unit so I can't see, and then does it so quickly, that I don't have a clue, and then looks at me all happy about it saying, look, I've done it lol, but that doesn't help me in any way. I think what he should do is just take 10-15 mins, and explain to me which screw he is adjusting, what that particular screw adjusts, and how that is relevant to that particular door, and also how it might be relevant to other doors. I don't think that is too much of an ask, do you?

[Colour Republic]

1) when the hinges are being screwed into the doors, they must be dead square. How I achieve this is by using a level, but that alone is not enough. I start with my first screw, doesn't matter which one. I then drive this in about 2/3 of its length, so that it is secure enough not to move, but not so tight that it knocks the hinge out of square. I then do the same thing with the remaining screw on that hinge. I then tighten both screws slowly, and it is as square as it can possibly be. I then repeat the above steps with hinge number 2.

I know for a fact that previously, i was tightening the first screw fully, and this was knocking the hinge out of square, which i believe was impacting on the hinge not being in line with the holes on the unit.

2) When I am screwing the door onto the unit, I am following a similar method with the screws. I put the first screw in the top hinge in, quite far in, but not fully tight i.e. about 3/4 of the way in. I then move onto one screw from the remaining hinge, and drive that in 3/4 of the way in. I then do the the same for the remaining screw on each hing, and then slowly tighten them up with a drill.

The end result is a door that needs adjusting just a touch. I'll be posting again within weeks to come to see if I am getting consistent results.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the above method.

number 1) can be improved slightly - Place both hinges in the door loose, then slide an 800mm level (or longer) down the door so it touches the back square edges of both hinges and levels them up so they are square with one another. By defalt this squares them up to the edge of the door. Then do one screw up so it is tight enough to hold the hinge but not so tight it distorts the hinge and makes it sight funny in the hole ligting one side, screw the second screw in tight, tighten the first screw up. Rinse and repeat for the second hinge.

(You can also do a similar trick with a combintion square, by extending the length of the square and sliding it down the top/bottom of the door until it touches the square edge of the hinge so you know the hinge is at 90 degrees to the door)

You could also give yourself a second guide to work to by setting up a combination square again, set the length of the sqaure so you can mark the door where the centre of your screws should be. Keep in mind the sqaure should be set 1mm shorter than what you think to allow for the pencil width, so for example if the screw holes on the door should be 33mm from the edge, set your combination square at 32mm, then when you draw your pencil guide line it should mark at 33mm, make sense? (Don't forget to wipe your pencil line off after fixing the hinges)

2) Always detatch the cabinet plate of the hinge before fixing, don't try and do it with the door all together. Just making life hard for yourself. This as you say should be fixed 3/4 with the first screw, then fix the second screw fully, go back and tighten first. What is happening is the thread of the first screw is gripping the plate in its central postion without letting it slide. If you tighten the first screw too much then the thread is no longer in contact with the hinge plate and the last turn of the screw slides it up or down. It sounds like you've figured this out.


All that said your problem may not be the hinges at all. And could very well be the carcases.

If your carcases arent installed to the wall perfectly level and sqaure then the doors will never line up as they should. This is the number 1 reasons for poorly installed kitchens! Walls are very rarely level and sqaure so when you tighten units to that wall it can twist and distort the unit out of shape. So now you have a square door sitting on a non square unit. Not going to happen is it. The square peg doesn't fit through the round hole does it. To get over this you can scribe the back of the units to the wall or as is often the case, use packers behind it to take up the slack. Use proper packers of 1/2/3/4/5mm, not bits of cardboard!. A few extra hours getting the carcases right will pay dividends when fitting doors and trims, no question about it.

This is all basic page 1 stuff and your 'teacher' should have made all this clear to you but sounds like he may not know himself!

To help further on how to fine tune the hinges after the door is on then it would be handy to know which hinges they are. Do you know where the kitchens are coming from? Are the hinges marked at all? Maybe they have a name stamped on them, blum, salice, hettich??

Better still, take and picture and upload to the forum.

[dewaltdisney]

What I tend to do, if there is room, is clamp a piece of wood on the underside of the carcase protruding to form a step to rest the door on whilst I mark the hinge plate centres on the side wall. Pilot drill and fix the plates then clip on the door. In this way the bottom edge is flush with the carcase bottom and you can take any small adjustment out to get it square.

DWD

[Alistair86]

@ dewalt disney, thank you for your reply. You have a brilliant idea. We use units that have pre-drilled holes but sometimes we need to drill holes where we are using a 1000 base in a corner. Either way though, it is still a handy thing to do.

@ colour republic, many many thanks for your thorough reply

In terms of point number 1, I am using a big level that rests against both hinges at the same time, so glad to hear I'm doing that okay.

In terms of point number two, I understand what is going on now, about the thread, and why it is important to drill it 3/4 of the way in. Can you kindly explain the following as I don't quite understand what is meant.

'Walls are very rarely level and sqaure so when you tighten units to that wall it can twist and distort the unit out of shape. So now you have a square door sitting on a non square unit. Not going to happen is it. The square peg doesn't fit through the round hole does it.'

Which square peg do you mean, and which round hole?

I look forward to you reply.

Many thanks

P.s the other point is, today I used the same method again on 3 doors, only screwed all the screws in in 3/4, and then tightened each one. The doors, in terms of their line, were absolutely brilliant (although I must admit i did not detach the hinge plate lol). I've found when i detach the hinge plate I just cant seem to get the hinges back in. But on the plus side of it all, I'm doing the job to a good standard since I first posted.

[joinerjohn]

If the walls are out (very rarely flat, plumb and true) then before screwing the units back to the wall (which will pull then out of square and twist them), you can either scribe the backs of the units to the wall, or insert spacers to hold them off the wall so they tighten up nice and true. I usually place a nice long straight edge along the datum line ( a pencil line marked at the height the base units will be going in at) on the wall and see if the walls aren't flat and also place the straight edge along approximately where the bottom of the units will be and check again for flatness. Your tutor should really be explaining (and showing you) how to ensure units are plumb and square when you fix them to the wall. All units in a row should all line up true and plumb, but not all units have to be fixed to the wall (as units should be fixed to each other too) I usually fix end units then every other unit to the wall.
As others have said the hinges should be separated and the brackets fixed to the units, hinges fixed to the doors, then finally come together towards the end of the complete kitchen fit. I prefer to fit worktops, sink, appliances, under unit lights, appliances , tiles/splashbacks, pelmet and cornice, before fitting the doors/drawer fronts (one of the last jobs imho)

[Alistair86]

@ joinerjohn thank you for your reply.

I understand what you mean. We also fix the end units to a wall with 'l brackets', and the rest of the units into eachother. We put these screws in inbetween the two hinge holes so that they are covered when the doors go on.

I tried to ask about scribing but my teacher said all scribing is is taking a bit of the back of the side panels to make them sit flush with the wall. I still can't fully understand how it works.

As far as making a run of units square, am I correct in thinking that the way to tell they re square is:

1) to ensure the run is straight on the top of the unit by checking with a level, and..

2) making sure the the front bit of all the sides are flush with eachother?

If the back bits of the side panels are being scribed, how do you get around the danger of haveing units that are not flush with one another from the front?

Sorry if I'm not making sense.

[joinerjohn]

Just as long as the end two units on a run are level and square with each other, the units in between could (in theory) have an inch cut off the backs of the sides of the units (so they didn't touch the wall whatsoever) Screwed together (level and flush with each other) then the middle units could be fixed to the worktop, preventing them moving at all.
If all units were scribed to the wall, you have to scribe them in such a way that the fronts of the units do line up with each other. Scribing to the wall is quite easy. Set your unit so it's plumb and level. Part of the back of the side panels will be against the wall (if the wall is out , other parts won't touch the wall. Measure the widest gap between the side panel and the wall and either set a compass (with a pencil in) to this width and run the point up the wall, whilst marking a line on the side panel, or cut a piece of timber the size of the widest gap, hold this against the wall and the side panel and slide it up or down whilst holding a pencil against the edge of the timber so it marks the side panel. Cut the side panel along this pencil line and when you place the unit back against the wall, it should now touch the wall right along it's height. I only usually do this for end panels which are in plain sight.