www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk

Hi all
First time posting here, I need some advice please.
I bought a kitchen from B&q last year and decided I'd fit the units myself, I'm a good diy'er but never attempted a kitchen before, before fitting mine my mum asked if I'd fit hers so reluctantly I agreed , thought it would be a learning curve for mine, well all went ok until the guy came to fit the work surface, he moaned the units weren't level and spent a while getting them right, embarrassed or what, anyway it was a lesson learnt, so I started on mine, built the units, started with corner unit, spent ages getting level, then the next units either side, checking , double checking etc, fine.
I then started on the next section, this is where I think I made the mistake, there is a 4" gap between this group of units and the other group, it was where the wife stored her tea towels, I stared by putting all the units in place and then levelled from the other group of units, sorry if this is confusing, I got them all level as I thought, as I'm not fitting the work surface I decided to put the old one back on for the time being, plumbed it all back in , old work surface , sink all back in place, looks great, well until I went to put on the end panels, these panels you need to cut to size, I thought it might look nice down to the floor so I measured both end panels only to find I'm 1/2" difference in height between the two groups of units, I can't believe I spent all that time and still it's wrong.
Please help, I guess I'm going to have to start over, I did see on the forum that you should mark a level line on the wall, is that where I went wrong?, it's very disheartening , why did everything seem level , should I get a long straight edge to go across all the units?
Please help

It could be that the units are level but the floor runs out. A good long level is a worthwhile investment.

In the meantime, put a marble on the worktop. if it rolls=bad if it doesn't=good.

Before I had a laser I used to use a 400mm torpedo level, a 2ft level and a 6ft joiners level to fit kitchens. I'd start by marking a datum line around the walls where the units were to go - that could be set using either the 6ft level or by using a water level (haven't had one of those for years, though) - necessary because as wine-o says floors can run out a long way, especially if the house has settled.

Before starting did you check that your levels are reading correctly? To check a level set something up which shows level on your spirit level, then flip it around, end-to-end and check for level. If the bubble has moved relative to the lines, then your spirit level is goosed - throw it away and get another one. It just isn't possible to measure accurately over any distance with short levels - which is why chippies almost all have 6ft levels these days

BTW a long (6ft or more) level can be made-up from a shorter one, like a 4ft/1200mm or 1m one by taping the shorter level onto a piece of straight 3 x 2in PAR softwood (so not one from B&Q! and don't run the tape onto the bottom edge) - just do an end to end check to make sure it's reading correctly and don't try to do this by starting out with a 2ft banana because there are limits, you know!

You did start the right way, but it sounds like you failed to do the all important setting-out first (datum line). To correct at this stage I'd pop a straight long piece of CLS or 3 x 2in PAR on the tops and relevel the units which are low to the underside of that. At least then the top will go on OK then

BTW I also hate installing worktops where somebody else has put in the units and they are not straight or level - this is because I may have to spend an hour or more of my time sorting out an SEP (someone elses problem ) which I rarely get paid for, so I can well understand the worktop fitter's chagrin.

You can never spend too much time surveying and marking out first, it saves time in fitting.

I mark a level line around the wall taking into account the floor levels, finished heights and appliances. I mark a line on the floor which is the front of the units and any returns are marked squarely. I also mark on the wall and front line where each unit edge falls.

Do that and when installing, you don't need to use a level (in theory) as all lines are in. If the points of units are to the lines then they are level, square and plumb. I check the levels out of habit and good practice before fixing each unit, but never had one that needed adjusting off the marks to be level and plumb.

The way I do it,,, Mark a datum line around the wall (using a spirit level) where the units are going. (pay attention to where any freestanding, under worktop appliances are going to make sure there's enough clearances) (W/Machine etc usually need 870mm height to fit under the w/top) Some floors are out of level) Re-do datum line if needed. Start in the corner (pay attention to any fitting instructions as to distance out from corner) level and plumb the unit and fix to wall. Place and level the next unit (and so on) Fix each unit to it's neighbour ( I usually pilot drill and screw through after clamping the units together) Check again that units are level and plumb, then fix every second unit to the wall. When it comes to the sink unit, you might have to drill holes in the back panel of the unit for the pipework/drainage. I usually have the plumbing sorted so there are two pipe tails coming straight out at right angles to the wall. Put the unit in place and mark the position for the holes on the back panel, drill a small hole through the centre then drill the bigger hole from the front. (same with the hole for drainage)
Of course, in an ideal world the walls will be flat and plumb. In the real world however, walls can be bowed (inwards or outwards) and sometimes can be not quite plumb.

yea i do the same with the datum line and set out where the units are to go.

i normally put the line at 890mm for the base units. obviously as others have said after checking the state of the floor. for the wall units i mark 1222mm from the datum line which is the top of the wall units. then drop by 50mm for the clips that hold the wall units in place.

thats for standard height wall units like.

ive never done what roc does before with the line on the floor. think ill try that next time i fit a kitchen adn see how that goes.

has anyone used those long rails for hanging wall units before? same profile as the standard clips but obviously longer

reakon ill price a laser into the next fit too.

I've used the long rails before fin,they are great if there are no dwangs in a stud wall as you can fix into the studs. You need to take a little notch out of the units but it saves cutting out the plasterboard and putting dwangs in.
Wouldn't use them on a solid wall though.
I set the units out the same as yourself fin,although if you have a tall unit in the kitchen this is your starting point,it needs to be set to height first and the wall units follow the height of this.

The problem with marking datums is that they should only be used as a guide to help level up units quickly, past that, each unit should be checked as it's installed.

The issue arises that people assume kitchen cabinets are square and true. Any flat packed or cam and dowel units are unlikely to be square and true because of the play in the units. Even glued cabinets are rarely square unless they have come from a very good manufacturer which clamps them square whilst it sets, something not a lot of manufacturers do.

aye stevie.. in the case of having a tall unit the heights still work though.

when howdens supply kitchens every now and then theres a fitting book hoyed in the box. those measurements are in that book too. along with heights for taller units too.

i mainly fit howdens kitchens anyway,. i guess other manufacturers maybe slightly different

Tall units are normally a standard 1970mm high (plus 150mm plinth) making the top of the wall units 2120mm off the floor, extra tall units are 2150mm (plus 150 plinths) i.e 2300mm off the floor.

Some have weird sizes such as Ikea and Wickes/Benchmarx. And of course Italian/German/Spanish kitchens which come in many more heights, when it comes to base/wall/tall

steviejoiner74 wrote:although if you have a tall unit in the kitchen this is your starting point,it needs to be set to height first and the wall units follow the height of this.

It's Christmas and there's nothing on telly, the wife's not here for me to annoy, I've sunk a couple of bevvies, so I'll now bore you with tales of the old days.

I can remember when there was no such thing as tall units.

Wall tiles were either 4.25 or 6 inches square, wall units were set up to accommodate either three or four rows of tiles (depending what size were going to be used).

Anybody remember the old Hygena QA kitchens from the 60s?

QA stands for quick assembly, these things had plastic sockets on the front and back sections and a bit of bent wire that hooked into both sockets to hold the back and front the correct distance apart, (as well as holding them together).

ye olde ayjay

fin wrote:ye olde ayjay

the Scruff's a lot older.

ayjay wrote:
Anybody remember the old Hygena QA kitchens from the 60s?

QA stands for quick assembly

Nope not the 60's version...

Hygena sales rep told me that "QA" stood for "Quality Assured".......

Defo quick assembly,my journeyman(ayjays age) used to reminisce about the trade of years gone by and hygena units were often brought up whilst fitting a kitchen