www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk

Hi Guys,
Have a job to start and would like to confirm my choice of materials and sizes.

I've to build, in situ. some shelves to hold box files containing Architectural Drawings and notes. They're quite heavy and the brief is to get as many on the shelves as possible. The shelves are to be of slatted style, it's what the customer wants. They are to be screwed together to allow dismantling and removal/rebuilding if required.

Area is 2850mm floor to ceiling, 2550 wall to wall.

Shelf to hold the depth of the box spaced at the height of the box to get maximum stored. Box is 300mm H x 350mm W x 420mm D.

Using Slat shelving to full span wall to wall.

Plan is to use 2 base plates of 2 x 3 (PAR 50 x 75) and support the uprights on these, this will also spread the overall load across the joists.

I want to confirm the upright sizes, maximum span and sizes of slats and basically are my construction techniques correct.

Planning on 1" x 2" (PAR 25 x 50) uprights (2 of) at each end and centred at 1225mm. that would allow 3 boxes per shelf with approx. 43mm between box and upright or box and box.

Depth of shelf 450mm

Slats of 1" x 1 1/5" (PAR 25 x 38) say 4 slats spaced 100mm (or would you recommend 5 slats spaced at 65mm) span of slats 1225mm. Span broken by 1" x 1 1/5" front to back at approx. 400mm spacings.

At 1225mm 2 more 1" x 2" uprights and a 1" x 2" baton (front to back) to support the slats.

With a height of 2850mm to ceiling, hoping to get 8 lengths of shelves on the wall allowing storage of 48 boxes in total?

Would you recommend anything else? Have I estimated/sized the space I have to allow 48 boxes to be stored. I'd like confirmation on my measuring of the spacings and numbers of slats and risers. Knock yourselves out

2x1 par is 22x44 [or 18x45 bxq wicks ect]
if your talking wood space wood space ect front to back on a 4ft span and the boxes are heavy then the front can be vunerable are you talking single lever boxes or boxes of lever files!!!

is it free standing or in an alcove !!!

i would be looking at faced or painted 12mm mdf for the partitions

you will require battons or simmilar at the shelve ends

Hi big-all,
Sorry to take so long.

Get you on the front so place the 2 front spars closer to each other (I've seen this done before).

The boxes are file boxes like this ...


The shelves will be 'free standing' in that they will be end on to a window wall and the other end onto a solid wall, backed to a wall. Intention was to tie them back onto the back wall with angle brackets to give rigidity.

Got the batons on the shelf ends.

Do you agree with the basic design and sizes of timber for the slats and uprights? I guess I'll just have to play it by ear on the sizes.

as i say i would have 12 mm mdf sides with battons to support the slats
i would build it as 3 seperate units they would need to be 350x2 +1"[2 sides] plus 1" clearence so thats 751mmx3=2253

7 boxes wide is not an option not enough room
now the battons have to encroach on the height or the width best they encroach on the hight otherwise you will have a 22mm gap at the side of each end box

so if you screw and glue a 20mm x20mm batton on 22mm back from the front edge to allow you to front the shelve with 2x1[22x44 face on at 44mm and hide the battons at the same time

8 boxes[300mm] +8 shelves [44mm] +10mm clearence would work fine at 2832
but in actual fact you wouldnt need a bottom shelve or a top

if they want a bottom shelve and top to the unit your in for more work as the height excedes 2440 of the sheet size

your units also want to be no higher than 2440 otherwise you wont be able to get them out the room because the diagonal will prevent it tipping forward enough to go flat

if you choose to make the sides from wood i would choose 3x1 front middle and back you wont have enough room any footings unless you move your supporting battons to the side of the boxes then you will loose the strengthened shelve front edge

other things to take into consideration is skirting window boards archatrave electric sockets and switches pipes and wiring

you realy need to find out if the client will be happy with the top of the box uncoverd and the bottom box being on or nearly on the floor

the absolute minimum 8 boxes and shelve with 10mm clearence and a top can be is 2678 but thats with the battons to the side of the boxes and 22mm shelves that would allow a 5 inch plinth but a unit that wont tip forward if it needs moving

Just a comment ....

Those type of document boxes are quite sturdy, but the bottoms do tend to sag a little (usually 4 pieces of card folded over and tucked into place - sure you know what I mean), and little corners fold over.

If you then combine that effect with slatted shelves, you could potentially end up with a solution that causes the boxes to jar on the slats everytime they are pushed back into place - especially if done by the typical office junior, who would likely to not have the nouce to take any care and just ram them harder if they are sticking . Eventually the boxes will just tear. One day, box is pulled out, bottom collapses, shelf is blamed as snagging it.

I would have thought solid shelves would have been technically better? bit like the stuff at Big Dug
I bought some of their shelving for my garage and it works very well, although it would not suit a smart office, I am sure.

Hi

I hop you don’t mind but if you look at the drawing showing a design of a slated shelf which is based on the information contained in this thread. You will see it’s been designed to have adjustable shelves 7 in each side. The shelves are supported on recessed bookcase strip housed in 44 x 59 uprights. Bookcase strips allow the shelves to be adjusted every 20mm so if your client changes the size or type of storage then the shelves can altered with out any problem.

The number of archive boxes is based on the following sizes 250 x 330 x 380 mm. Each of the archive boxes= 0.0209 m3 = 16.75kg if filled with 80gm paper. = 50.16kg per shelf, hence the size of the bearers 22 x 70 rebated to take the 22.x 44 slats.

I realise that this may not have been what you were thinking of but you may find some of the design of interest, and my wish to adapt parts to suite your individual needs. You may also think it as been over engineered but just think the total weight being held on these slated shelves; 42 boxes each 16kg = 672kg and what about if the paper is 100gm that would mean the total weight could be 877kg.

The grade of soft wood I would recommend is Scandinavian redwood 5th or better not the rubbish you get from the big sheds.

Regarding the shelf material I recommend that you consider taking the advice given by Hoovie and use a manmade board like plywood or MDF to help prevent the base of the boxes snagging. You will see the slats in the design are running cross ways this will also prevent the bottom of the boxes snagging.

Please don’t be offended by any of the above or what is contained in the drawing just trying to help.

All sizes contained in the drawing are for guidance only.

big all,

I'm adopting most of your design and will take pics of the build as it goes. I just need to confirm my sizes and wood requirements.


I like the portable nature of the units and I'm sure the client will too. As far as a top and bottom shelf, he's leaving it up to me to build and design. I'll check if a plinth is feasible/required once the units are built.

Thanks for the input and ideas, I do like this type of build/work, I like working with wood but lack the experience and techniques. But I'm working on it.

One more question, allowing that the units will be self standing (all be it secured to the back wall and partner units) if they were to be moved I'm a little concerned about the stability. I don't really want to place a 12mm MDF back on them. I suppose a warning that if removed they have to be handled carefully to stop them 'Flat Packing' mind you they'll go through the door opening easier

Ellie,
Hi ,
Nice drawing and would love to do more like that but this isn't a public area so material doesn't have to be as good as the spec on your plan, but I love the plan. More techniques there for me to remember.

Can I ask what program you use for the drawings?

Thanks

Allan

6mm mdf will do a great job at the back

but dont forget you will have to have an open top as sheet material is 2440 high although you could build wiith an open top start although you could add a bit to the top held on by dowels and not glued this would allow you to work up to within 25mm of the roof and allow removal for moving

or easier still build it full height for 7 boxes at 2440 then the last box can sit on top and all you will need is a small lip [about 44mm ]at the open end
incidently that may allow an extra box on top

make shure you get 2 or 3 boxes [different makes ]to check for size and dont assume they are all the same

Open top is fine, if he wants it topped off I can always come back.

I'll leave the back for now and ask the client, I can always drop the unit forward (carefully) and apply it.

I'm assuming drill and screw the batons from the MDF through into batons counter sinking the heads into the MDF?

Was due to start it today but got a call from a plasterer with 2 leaking radiators!

Clients fine he says any time this week will be good. Hopefully tomorrow will give me a weather break long enough to get the MDF from Savoy to the office in the dry

big-all wrote: make shure you get 2 or 3 boxes [different makes ]to check for size and dont assume they are all the same

That’s why I recommend adjustable shelves


I have changed the drawing to show diagonal bracing plus additional top rail on the rear of the shelves. This will stop the shelves collapsing like a pack of cards.

You have properly noticed that the unit is designed to be constructed in two parts i.e. two separate units of 1275mm wide. I think you will find it is much the same as Big-all as described to you, all I have don is put on paper.

You may also like to visit www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator.htm regarding shelf thickness

Don’t forget you can print the drawing to show your client it may help to show how professional you are.

Think about the project a little deeper, how about constructing the job off site all you need to is take detailed dim’s.

The project may not be in a public area but doesn’t mean that you after use crap materials. No mater what project I am commissioned to undertake I only use the best materials for the job. Even if it in a dark damp hole in the ground. A way of showing your professionalism is the materials you use.

Personally I never use softwood even for cabinet carcase I use hardwood, it might only be Idigbo but it is a hardwood and nearly knot free and is much the same price as unsorted Scandinavian redwood.

The drawings are produced with AutoCAD 2008. It is recognised as being the industry standard.

That's a cool calc.

And another bookmark for my woodworking exploits.

I hear what you're saying but I couldn't afford the time to learn and set up for rebating and mortising joints. Have got some of the gear waiting for me to get better and I use them when I can.
Currently 2 x ELU MOFF177e's and a MOFF96e. Elu mitre saw, elu biscuit jointer and a few tables fittings for them that I'm not 100% what do with.
So will have many questions with pictures later, for now thanks big all and ellie.

Yes eventually that's what I'd like to do but I'll learn on 'off time' not 'need to earn a buck time', if you know what I mean.

Long term it would stand me in good stead, but for now I'll have to go with what I know.

Thanks to you both for the help and advice. I'll be looking for more, especially when I ask about my garage doors that I want to make, yip I do pick easy ones to start with.

AutoCad, never really got down to learning that but worked with an Architect design firm for 2 years so had access to play but not to learn, I wasn't there as a technician.

Have any of you tried Google sketch up?

On occasions so called trades men pop into my work shop, and make comments like “WOW but can’t be bothered to take that much trouble in and out that’s me” and they wonder why they don’t get called upon to do very ,very well paid jobs for very nice well turned out clients who have a few pennies to spend.

How long will it take to put a router bit in a router to produce a grove or a rebate?
How long will it take to set up biscuit jointer?

The only way to learn how to use your tools is to use them.

In the end all you are saying “and don’t be offended” I can’t be bothered.

I'm not offended, I've lived in England for over 20 years I'm Scottish and I'm still here, you're not even trying.

Well if you interpreted what I said as 'I can't be bothered' there's not a lot I can say about that, it's your interpretation.

I'm not a so called tradesman, well not in joinery or cabinet making, I'm a plumber and I enjoy the diversity of offering my services as a 'HandyMan' nothing more nothing less, my improving of my skills in various 'trades' is not to pass myself off as a 'trademan' of that trade but to provide a better job when I am experienced enough to do so and strangely enough give me greater enjoyment in producing it. For now I have to limit my production and enjoyment to my ability on certain tools and with certain materials.

Until now your comments and suggestions have been useful and helpful.
You're latest one could have been taken as offensive but for me it was just a little rude, your call is off the mark.

Now WTF do you live

I'm assuming drill and screw the batons from the MDF through into batons counter sinking the heads into the MDF?

yes 1"8s [4x25mm]countersunk 6mm if the batton is 20x20mm avoid the first inch]

you could also use 8x1.5"s and go directly into the end of the slats[one per slat on batton 2 if no batton

mark up all the sides at the same time to keep the shelves level and matching
cut a "spacer"[a slat 5mm shorter than the rest] assuming your working to 50 percent spaces fix the front slat then use your "spacer "to position the next slat
if your working to a different ratio[width] make your spacer accordingly



because your dealing with approximatly 120 to 144 slats plus 48 battons a chopsaw with length stop will save around 2hrs over "site" construction and always make 2 or 3 spares

if you make the sides 398mm deep you will get 6 sides from 2 sheets just depends on wheter they are happy with 35mm stiking out the shelve fronts

dont forget any skirting will need to be removed for the sides to sit tight against the wall
and if you have a bottom shelve your back slat will have to be forward around 18mm to clear the back skirting when you rebate the side pannels to fit over the skirting
if you dont have a bottom shelve remember to deduct the correct number of slats and battons from your calculations