Downlights

[hiace_drifter]

The downlight surrounds in my bathroom are old and rusty, and for some reason new LED bulbs won't fit in them (the body of the lamp seems too big to fit up through the hole). I wanted to replace the surround/lamp holders for both aesthetic reasons, and to allow me to use modern bulbs

So, I have bought some of these (but can return if needed):

Screenshot 2022-05-19 081929.png (181.22 KiB) Viewed 1737 times

In the image they show grey twin and earth being connected.

However the existing downlights are connected via this thinner white cable:

IMG_20220519_081037034 (2).jpg (90.51 KiB) Viewed 1737 times

Are the new lamp holders compatible? Or do I need to buy a different sort? I'm wondering if the old downlights have one of the "green boxes" seen on the new lights tucked up inside the ceiling?

[Neelix]

FWIW the KSR fittings are the ones I always use.

AVOID sealed led units

[hiace_drifter]

FWIW the KSR fittings are the ones I always use.

AVOID sealed led units

Sorry what's "KSR" fitting? And yes I trawled around to find non sealed units, I like to be able to replace just bulbs.

[hiace_drifter]

For the downlight I added a picture of - the driver is in the green box I assume?

[hiace_drifter]

Another downlight ... is the driver in the bulb?

IMG_20220519_095644015 (1).jpg (58 KiB) Viewed 1721 times

[ericmark]

There are many different types of MR16 down lights, (multifaceted reflector 16/8ths of an inch across) we have G5.3, GU10, and SES to name a few. With G5.3 the supply was often 12 volt (extra low voltage), but with the others often 230 volt (low voltage) and the regulations since 1966 have required a circuit protective conductor shall be run to and terminated at each point in wiring and at each accessory except a lampholder having no exposed-conductive-parts and suspended from such a point. And so since the GU10 is not suspended it needs an earth running to it, even when not connected, the standard method was to use lighting junction boxes which replaced the ceiling rose.

However the problem is where it was originally extra low voltage, or even separated extra low voltage (SELV) where an earth is not permitted, and it has had the isolation transformer removed and converted to low voltage, which in theory means pulling in new cables, but rarely done, so one has to decide if to follow the regulations and pull in new cables, or to say it's a class II fitting is does not need an earth blow the regulations.

The problem back in 1966 was the use of fluorescent fittings which needed an earth, and people fitting them without the earth as it was simply not there, so the rules say the earth must be available even if not used, and I know when I wanted lights for my parents house (1954) I paid well over the odds to get class II fittings.

As to is the driver in the bulb, yes, drivers are normally build into bulbs, be it 12 volt or 230 volt, a LED is a current dependent device, and some thing needs to limit the current, be it a resistor, a capacitor, or a full fledged pulse width modulated controller, but often power supplies are called drivers or transformers when really they are not, they are a switch mode power supply, but the lighting industry it seems keeps the old names even when using new technology, so still call it a ballast, transformer, driver, when it is not really that any more, but in the main the GZ10, GU10, and GU10L1 are all 230 volt, so no external driver, the difference between the 3 is one allows heat to pass through the reflector (GZ) the other has a tapper to stop GZ bulbs from being fitted the GU10, and the L1 version has a dimple so only energy saving bulbs can be used.

The dimple seems to have now been abandoned together with the three pins on the BA22d bulbs, it just means British home owners can't simply swap a bulb, they need to change the holder, as the rest of EU it seems did not enforce the laws so bulbs no longer available.

Whole reason for the 12 volt quartz halogen bulb was the thicker filament lasted longer, so has gone, there is some bathrooms where SELV is still required, but in the main 12 volt lights are a legacy from the days of quartz halogen, however also wanted very careful control either two bright or too dim would reduce bulb life, so use a switch mode power supply, which has a range of outputs typical 30-60 VA which means can't be used with LED. Also quartz halogen bulbs should not be dimmed, although it was often done.

[Someone-Else]

The white cable you see in the FIRST picture is actually a sheath to give the cable some heat resistance from the halogen lamp, if you pull it further down you will find some type of connection method (Choc bloc, JB what ever, like you have in the SECOND picture) In both cases you need to remove the cable and connect your grey incoming cables to the "green connection box * of your new light"

And do connect the earths on all lights (in the green connection box)

The lamps you have are GU10, 240v so they do not require an external driver.

* It is just a screwless connector which is enclosed when you shut its lid.

[hiace_drifter]

The white cable you see in the FIRST picture is actually a sheath to give the cable some heat resistance from the halogen lamp, if you pull it further down you will find some type of connection method (Choc bloc, JB what ever, like you have in the SECOND picture) In both cases you need to remove the cable and connect your grey incoming cables to the "green connection box * of your new light"

And do connect the earths on all lights (in the green connection box)

The lamps you have are GU10, 240v so they do not require an external driver.

* It is just a screwless connector which is enclosed when you shut its lid.

Thankyou, I think my confusion stemmed from not knowing the driver could be in the bulb!

[hiace_drifter]

Right ... I have my hole saw set, with an adaptor bit to use a smaller hole saw as a guide, so I can enlarge the holes. I've only just noticed the lights say drill a 74mm hole .. I only have a 76mm saw. Is the 2mm difference going to matter? I can't find a 74mm hole saw for love nor money online!

[stevei]

Cut a hole with your 76mm saw in a bit of thin ply or anything else that you might have, then try a light in the hole.

[hiace_drifter]

Cut a hole with your 76mm saw in a bit of thin ply or anything else that you might have, then try a light in the hole.

Measuring the light it'd have loads of spare room in a 74mm hole, so I'll buy a set with 72mm in.

[hiace_drifter]

Well 3 lights fitted, but 4 of the old ones are right up against joists. In one instance the joist is over the hole. What's my best bet? Remove the smaller nested hole saw that I was using as a pilot, and drill the new large holes off centre (as indicated by the red line?

Also old cables sandwiched between plasterboard and joist!

[Someone-Else]

You have no choice. You can't put the fitting next to the joist as it will not fit properly, so you have to move the light. I would reposition it away from where it is, brand new hole, but if they are in the same room do check in relation to the others will this look right.

[hiace_drifter]

You have no choice. You can't put the fitting next to the joist as it will not fit properly, so you have to move the light. I would reposition it away from where it is, brand new hole, but if they are in the same room do check in relation to the others will this look right.

How much gap should i leave between old and new holes, to avoid the plasterboaard crumbling and making one big hole?

[hiace_drifter]

The problem is the ones that need moving are part of a set of 6. If I move them to new locations they will be very uneven (red circles). If I enlarge the holes, but off centre, they will still be out but only by a small amount. Would enlarging (orange crescent) go horribly wrong?