www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk

BillyGoat wrote: you need to fire up Vi

what???

IMO GET A GOOD ANTIVIRUS, it doesnt have to cost ie AVG ie freeware but you do need one if your pc is connected to the net, also keep it updated, computers are like cars, keep them maintained and they will last, rag em around for months and abuse them they will cost you in the long run, service it (defrag, update, clean) regularly. I personally backup evrything as good practice and once every 6-9 months i format and reinstall.

best things to practice...

1. get a good antivirus (or security suite)
2. update regularly
3. clean...

also yes there are some great free versions of software out there if you want more specific advice ask here for free alternatives. however open office and foxit are amoung the freeware.

as for linux WHY AINT YOU TRIED IT YET???

i suggest for linux virgins you try ubuntu first its free and boots directly from disk, so try it first without getting rid of windows till you are firmilliar


:D

+1 for a Linux OS. I've been running Ubuntu for about a year and 4 months now.
You can download the ISO file onto a USB stick and set your bios to boot from that first to try it. If you like it, then set your computer to dual boot (you get the option which OS you want to use) Plenty of free software out there that's every bit as good as bought stuff.
Linux can involve a bit of a learning curve though (and assumes the user knows what they are doing) It's easy to mess up (specially when your Super User in Terminal)
As I say, I've been using it for over a year now, completely without any AV and I have not even got a cold in this time. There's lots of forums out there for support (you will need it) Most problems you have will be solved by using the forums. Even if you can't do without your Windoze, programs, there's always Playonlinux, Wine, or Crossover (which can run Win Applications on Linux)
The only thing I really, really miss is my all time favourite MMORPG ,, Eve Online (they stopped Linux support a few years ago)

PS Linux OS's don't suffer from the infamous "Defragmentation" associated with Win xxxxx OS's, so don't slow up after a few minutes of operation.

I came in here ready to side with someones anti virus! It's not nice pushing family out

Hey come on...gotta bring something to the party

joinerjohn wrote: As I say, I've been using it for over a year now, completely without any AV and I have not even got a cold in this time.

I wonder about people when they say this - how do you KNOW, 100% that your computer isn't logging your bank details and spewing them out to an unknown server somewhere?

There is such a thing as a false sense of safety, where you WANT to believe that your chosen OS is totally protected from all that is out there. We've all agreed earlier that the problem isn't so much the OS (cue Windows bashing....), but the meat in front of it!

I'm sure the goal of a virus writer way back in the day was to wreck as many computers as possible, which they done a really good job of. Then there was a realisation that there are better uses for these enslaved machines - causing them to be detected and cleansed was the last thing the operators want.

The code has got better. The mechanism to defeat detection, avoid heuristic engines and known databases is always improving. It's a game of cat and mouse. So I wonder, how can you be so sure?

Are you 100% sure you're computer isn't running exploitable services, not running a masked demon or mail server? A slow, steady trickle of spam coming from your machine isn't going to flag any alarm bells.

Most start with an exploit to get the initial infection on the host. Once it's on there, they send additional packages to do the work - it's big money, seriously!

joinerjohn wrote: PS Linux OS's don't suffer from the infamous "Defragmentation" associated with Win xxxxx OS's, so don't slow up after a few minutes of operation.

I do wonder what people do with their computers to get them into such a state. My work laptop in front of me has two 500GB HDDs inside. It's been working it's nuts off for over a year and a half. It's got some kind of group policy on it, forcing updates and company software any time they wish (some good, some bad). It's had literally HUNDREDS of applications installed, removed, updated and it runs as fast as it did when I first set it up.

I don't defrag, ever. I've got AV installed, which does a sterling job and that's it. I can't help but wonder if it's people downloading torrents and shared "goodies", stuffed full of malware and then blaming the OS for being poor.

I'm sorry, but if you stick your cock in a leper's armpit, you should expect to get nob rot - that's your own doing.

BG

Flippin' 'eck, BG. You sound a little grumpy and stressed. I used to be like that when I was using Windows. I've become a lot more serene since switching to Linux.

BillyGoat wrote:I really don't understand the dislike for Microsoft sometimes, I really don't.
People complain that it's bloated, yet if the features were removed it would then get lambasted for not providing or removing things 'people have paid for'.

Well Linux doesn't have either of those problems, you install (pay for) only what you need.

BillyGoat wrote:It's got to be capable of living on an infinite amount of computers and hardware combinations, so there is obviously going to be a sizeable driver library built in, plus the mountain of features/services and other stuff used to make the machine usable.

Why? On Linux if you don't need a media player you don't have to have one. How many people use or really expect video conferencing, for example, as part of the windows package they are paying for. You can simply remove just about any package from a Linux OS without breaking the system or having to de-fragment every other week. Anyone who has tried to remove the hideously pernicious Norton antivirus from Windows will know theses 'extras' have nothing to do user choice.

BillyGoat wrote:I also don't understand why people dislike Windows so much. It's a standard operating system, it means you can move from one computer to the next, without having to learn a new shell, command parameters, different bootloaders, interfaces, system for downloading and installing applications or even the need in some instances to compile your own version - how many would ask their parents to do this (I fear the day my parents WANT to use something else).

Windows is not standard; Microsoft goes out of it's way to make it's system non universal... heck, Windows has compatibility issues between it's own versions. With Linux I can move from one computer to the next (that can boot from the USB) without having to do any of those things you mention. Generally the two systems do work very well together, but that is solely down to the fact that Linux programmers are constantly working to make it that way.

BillyGoat wrote:There are free alternatives, as you are all aware - but I question if they are REALLY the correct choice in a commercial environment. What happens when a user needs support with these 'free' alternatives? Do they get told to go online, search some forums for an answer? Is that what you would be expect to hear from the support line? Oh wait, there is no support line......

Granted it's not for everyone or every situation, but neither should Windows be, but domination is at the heart of Microsoft's business model and their product suffers because of this.

It's simply not true that there are no support solutions for Linux. It's not a question of 'free', if a company is running it's computer systems on a principle of free then that is a bad business plan.

BillyGoat wrote:Microsoft have different licencing structures for education and large organisations - these can be quite compelling. It allows kids and adults to learn a system that is in wide use across the world. There are established tools and system in place for deployment, management and control of these networks and an abundance of people who can use these tools as well, thus reducing your down time - important for any business.

Yeah, my daughter's school gets computers via a 'wonderful deal', of course they all come with Windows installed... nothing like catching them early, eh?
Makes submitting homework (done on a linux machine) a bit long winded. But on the plus side she has had to learn to use a computer at a deeper level than the Windows UI.

There is nothing wrong with a good product dominating the market on it's merits; the issue is the need to dominate the market coming first and leading to incompatible and often poor products.

BillyGoat wrote:I also go to companies that use these free solutions. Usually "they work". The person who set them up is usually the only person who knows the system. It's their baby. They rarely share any details about it, nothing is written. IT's not standard in any way shape or form. If they get hit by a bus - what happens to the business. I tell you what happens.....for the first day/week/month it's all ok, then something goes wrong and the "free" solution comes crumbling the ground or they have to spend a fortune on a special support contract to get them running. Not so free in the long run.

Again, sounds like a bad business plan rather than any issue with Linux (or Windows). The same could be said for many parts of a businesses operations, your point sounds a little anecdotal.

BillyGoat wrote:It just confuses me, that if a company makes a great product they are too big and nasty. If your business got REALLY successful, would you want to coated in tar and feathers for making money? I don't know about you, but I want to make LOTS of cash.....what's wrong with that?

If it's such a great product why are so many people jumping ship? The fact is an increasing number of home users and businesses are demanding alternatives. There are lots of ways to make lots of cash, not all of them are 'right' or 'good'.

BillyGoat wrote:Why is it a monopoly? There IS choice - it's that people find it easier to BLAME them for having a great (In my opinion) product that is easy to use.

The only reason Microsoft is not the Monopoly it was judged to be a few years ago is because it's losing it's grasp on the market share, because of it's poor product imo.

BillyGoat wrote:If people are too stupid to find an alternative, who's fault is that? Really?

An increasing number of people are apparently not too stupid to find an alternative. But is it too much to ask that the system with the overwhelming share of the market doesn't keep updating it's software to stifle that alternative choice?

BillyGoat wrote:Incidentally, I CAN use Linux/UNIX and Mac operating systems too...

I reckon if you sat a new users down in front of a Linux machine they wouldn't know it from any other OS. It's nothing like the command line linux of 5 or 10 years ago.

BillyGoat wrote:"No Mum, listen!!! I said you need root for this!!! Again, you need to fire up Vi and look for the line that starts UUID=11f92990-b2e0-4a7c- THEN add realtime comment. I really though you'd got the hang of this. Next you'll be telling me you've not been keeping your Kernal upto date.....

What? When was the last time you used a Linux machine?

BiikerGirl wrote:I agree that it's horses for courses. I have never been able to afford a state of the art computer. Up until about 6 months ago I was using a 9 year old hp laptop because I couldn't afford to upgrade. Running windows XXp it was so slow it was barely useable, despite upgrading the memory as far as I could and having nothing stored on it. hopefully linux will give it a new lease of life Horses for courses.

Unless the hardware is knackered it can only be the software slowing the machine down. Linux handles things in a fundamentally different way to Windows which will always slow over time and need frequent de fragmenting. I have salvaged several laptops that have been 'written off' by formatting and installing Linux. My niece (a poor student) was buying a new laptop every 6 months. There are now several Linux machines spread around various relatives and all running very nicely.

Pooneil wrote:Flippin' 'eck, BG. You sound a little grumpy and stressed. I used to be like that when I was using Windows. I've become a lot more serene since switching to Linux.

Can't be bothered to spend ages sorting quote tags out, so I'm using blue. I LOVE Windows - it's the right choice for me, it makes me happy. I'm actully very happy and de-stressed. Life is good.

BillyGoat wrote:I really don't understand the dislike for Microsoft sometimes, I really don't.
People complain that it's bloated, yet if the features were removed it would then get lambasted for not providing or removing things 'people have paid for'.

Well Linux doesn't have either of those problems, you install (pay for) only what you need.

BillyGoat wrote:It's got to be capable of living on an infinite amount of computers and hardware combinations, so there is obviously going to be a sizeable driver library built in, plus the mountain of features/services and other stuff used to make the machine usable.

Why? On Linux if you don't need a media player you don't have to have one. How many people use or really expect video conferencing, for example, as part of the windows package they are paying for. You can simply remove just about any package from a Linux OS without breaking the system or having to de-fragment every other week. Anyone who has tried to remove the hideously pernicious Norton antivirus from Windows will know theses 'extras' have nothing to do user choice.

Hmmm. You know, if an OEM doesn't want to install Media Player and IE, they don't have too. They also don't have to install Norton (which is obviously third party software - so a poor example on your part). Why do they do it? MONEY. They get PAID to install the software or when an end user activates. They install the toolbars because they get paid. They do demo software and homepage and favourite links because they get money.

They HAVE the option to provide an installation without, but why would they take it? The first call from the user would be "why can't I play my CD?". Think the answer "oh, download something - we wanted to give you choice" would work well? It's been tried, for the most part users don't like it. They get the browser choice thing because it was decided it was bad to force users onto IE - most CHOOSE IE. I worked with a support center who took support calls. When this was pushed out as an update, most of the calls were to get rid of it, they liked what they had.

If Linux was more mainstreme and it was sold in shops readily, do you think it would be such a rosy expereince? Do you not think there would be a ton of software developed to get products sold? Do you think it would be stock and not customised?

I think there is some confusion here about the types of systems - you are comparing home installs for the most part with shop brought systems that have been made to make money and provide a level of experience to the end user. I'm sure if you compared a stock system in speed and software, it would fare differently, but where is the fun in that?

And again - where is this defragging every week coming from?

BillyGoat wrote:I also don't understand why people dislike Windows so much. It's a standard operating system, it means you can move from one computer to the next, without having to learn a new shell, command parameters, different bootloaders, interfaces, system for downloading and installing applications or even the need in some instances to compile your own version - how many would ask their parents to do this (I fear the day my parents WANT to use something else).

Windows is not standard; Microsoft goes out of it's way to make it's system non universal... heck, Windows has compatibility issues between it's own versions. With Linux I can move from one computer to the next (that can boot from the USB) without having to do any of those things you mention. Generally the two systems do work very well together, but that is solely down to the fact that Linux programmers are constantly working to make it that way.

Do you think the latest version of Windows should still have the option to alt tab to get back to DOS? I mean, god forbid progress is made and having to drop legacy components of a system is part of that progress.

I also think it's unfair to say they don't make it universal. What is incompatible between versions - old third party software?

BillyGoat wrote:There are free alternatives, as you are all aware - but I question if they are REALLY the correct choice in a commercial environment. What happens when a user needs support with these 'free' alternatives? Do they get told to go online, search some forums for an answer? Is that what you would be expect to hear from the support line? Oh wait, there is no support line......

Granted it's not for everyone or every situation, but neither should Windows be, but domination is at the heart of Microsoft's business model and their product suffers because of this.

It's simply not true that there are no support solutions for Linux. It's not a question of 'free', if a company is running it's computer systems on a principle of free then that is a bad business plan.

Agreed here.

BillyGoat wrote:Microsoft have different licencing structures for education and large organisations - these can be quite compelling. It allows kids and adults to learn a system that is in wide use across the world. There are established tools and system in place for deployment, management and control of these networks and an abundance of people who can use these tools as well, thus reducing your down time - important for any business.

Yeah, my daughter's school gets computers via a 'wonderful deal', of course they all come with Windows installed... nothing like catching them early, eh?
Makes submitting homework (done on a linux machine) a bit long winded. But on the plus side she has had to learn to use a computer at a deeper level than the Windows UI.

There is nothing wrong with a good product dominating the market on it's merits; the issue is the need to dominate the market coming first and leading to incompatible and often poor products.

Wild sweeping statement again, with no evidence to back it. If I pop round, can you install my laptop with a distro of your choice and make it FULLY work?

BillyGoat wrote:I also go to companies that use these free solutions. Usually "they work". The person who set them up is usually the only person who knows the system. It's their baby. They rarely share any details about it, nothing is written. IT's not standard in any way shape or form. If they get hit by a bus - what happens to the business. I tell you what happens.....for the first day/week/month it's all ok, then something goes wrong and the "free" solution comes crumbling the ground or they have to spend a fortune on a special support contract to get them running. Not so free in the long run.

Again, sounds like a bad business plan rather than any issue with Linux (or Windows). The same could be said for many parts of a businesses operations, your point sounds a little anecdotal.

BillyGoat wrote:It just confuses me, that if a company makes a great product they are too big and nasty. If your business got REALLY successful, would you want to coated in tar and feathers for making money? I don't know about you, but I want to make LOTS of cash.....what's wrong with that?

If it's such a great product why are so many people jumping ship? The fact is an increasing number of home users and businesses are demanding alternatives. There are lots of ways to make lots of cash, not all of them are 'right' or 'good'.

It's a changing market, people will select their next product based on price (usually) and there is ever changing technology to further muddy the watesr. For people that leave, there will be people that come back. There was a survey about how happy and likely it was for them to purchase their next Apple device - 25% said they would NOT, fair chance they will replace the missing lot that have gone the other way.

BillyGoat wrote:Why is it a monopoly? There IS choice - it's that people find it easier to BLAME them for having a great (In my opinion) product that is easy to use.

The only reason Microsoft is not the Monopoly it was judged to be a few years ago is because it's losing it's grasp on the market share, because of it's poor product imo.

BillyGoat wrote:If people are too stupid to find an alternative, who's fault is that? Really?

An increasing number of people are apparently not too stupid to find an alternative. But is it too much to ask that the system with the overwhelming share of the market doesn't keep updating it's software to stifle that alternative choice?

BillyGoat wrote:Incidentally, I CAN use Linux/UNIX and Mac operating systems too...

I reckon if you sat a new users down in front of a Linux machine they wouldn't know it from any other OS. It's nothing like the command line linux of 5 or 10 years ago.

Technology is great - I'm all for development. It spurs invoation!!

BillyGoat wrote:"No Mum, listen!!! I said you need root for this!!! Again, you need to fire up Vi and look for the line that starts UUID=11f92990-b2e0-4a7c- THEN add realtime comment. I really though you'd got the hang of this. Next you'll be telling me you've not been keeping your Kernal upto date.....

What? When was the last time you used a Linux machine?

It was tongue in cheek humour - you obviously need the humour plugin downloading.


Happy BG (apologies for spelling)




edited to provide a spot more sense.

Pooneil wrote:

BiikerGirl wrote:I agree that it's horses for courses. I have never been able to afford a state of the art computer. Up until about 6 months ago I was using a 9 year old hp laptop because I couldn't afford to upgrade. Running windows XXp it was so slow it was barely useable, despite upgrading the memory as far as I could and having nothing stored on it. hopefully linux will give it a new lease of life Horses for courses.

Unless the hardware is knackered it can only be the software slowing the machine down. Linux handles things in a fundamentally different way to Windows which will always slow over time and need frequent de fragmenting. I have salvaged several laptops that have been 'written off' by formatting and installing Linux. My niece (a poor student) was buying a new laptop every 6 months. There are now several Linux machines spread around various relatives and all running very nicely.

If it stops the machines ending up in a landfill -

However, I refer you to my leper comment earlier. If those machines weren't riddled with file sharing apps and illegal software, I'll eat my own pants.

BG

Ms Office causes a system delay of 7%, net framework 9%, messenger 7%, install enough programmes - even if you don't actually run the programme and your pc dies. Terrible.

I used to like Ubuntu.....till the horror that is Unity Unity is vile vile vile and falls for the windows 8 trap of designing for the tablet market.

Now windows 7 is my favorite.

Really get on well with windows 7, first windows I've really liked since....windows 2000.

BG, completely reformatted old lappy, wiped windows (by accident) and reinstalled it, and it was just as slow as it had been before. It only has (upgraded) 1GB RAM and 20 GB hard drive. windows is just too much for it. I tried out ubuntu booting from a disk and it looks ok.

Dunno Scot. Unity seems to be fine. Easy to find applications and files too.
Billy Goat. Around 60% + of web servers on the internet are running a Linux OS. It's just so much more dependable than Windoze.

joinerjohn wrote:Dunno Scot. Unity seems to be fine. Easy to find applications and files too.
Billy Goat. Around 60% + of web servers on the internet are running a Linux OS. It's just so much more dependable than Windoze.

Interesting point you make there John. May I counter your argument with the following points:

1.
2.
and of course
3.

I'll let this go after this post, I'm aware I'm starting to sound like some geeky fanboy.

BillyGoat wrote:Can't be bothered to spend ages sorting quite tags out, so I'm using blue. I LOVE Windows - it's the right choice for me, it makes me happy. I'm actully very happy and de-stressed. Life is good.

That's great. But do you also understand that others have a very different experience with Windows, and that their complaints are not simply a knee jerk reaction of an anti corporate lynch mob.

BillyGoat wrote:Hmmm. You know, if an OEM does't want to install Media Player and IE, they don't have too. They also don't have to install Norton (which is obviously third party software - so a poor example on your part). Why do they do it? MONEY. They get PAID to install the software or some other model. They install the tools bars because they get paid. They do demo softwares and homepages because they get paid. They HAVE the option to provide a install without, but why would they take it? The first call from the user would be "why can't I play my CD?". Think the answer "oh, download something - we wanted to give you choice would work well?

But that's the point. Most people buy a computer with the 'most appropriate' 'one size fits all' package pre-installed, but that package isn't necessarily what's best for the user, it is, as you admit, what makes Microsoft most money.

From day one your computer is at least quarter 'full' of stuff someone else thinks you should have (because it makes them money). In some instances it might well be stuff you want, often it's not. Norton is a very good example because your 'free 6 month trial' becomes a lifetime advertisement that is impossible to remove – I don't know if this is specifically still the case with Norton, it's been a long time since I used Windows.

BillyGoat wrote:If Linux was more mainstreme and it was sold in shops readily, do you think it would be such a rosy expereince? Do you not think there would be a ton of software developed to get products sold?

To a certain extent that is already the case. There are a plethora of distributions, each offering different software packages to entice more users. But if the package I opt for comes with Banshee but I prefer rhythmbox I can switch with a couple of clicks, without leaving any corrupt files, without having a Banshee pop-up 'remind' me once a week that I need to update (for a fee) and without the risk that a later system update will contain code to deliberately brake my choice to install rhythembox (because the system makes money from Banshee).

BillyGoat wrote:I think there is some confusion here about the types of systems - you are comparing home installs for the most part with shop brought systems that have been made to make money. I'm sure if you compared a stock system in speed and software, it would fare differently.

Home installed and pre-installed shop bought systems are exactly the same option in Linux. If you're saying the the shop bought MS systems (made to make money) are slower and more bloated than stock systems then that kind of makes my point.

BillyGoat wrote:And again - where is this defragging every week coming from?

Bitter experience. To be fair, the main reason people de-frag so often on Windows is because the package is available as a trouble shooter package. In fact there are a whole range of 'fix my crappy computer' packages on Windows... ironically making things even more bloated.

BillyGoat wrote:Do you think the latest version of Windows should still have the option to alt tab to get back to DOS? I mean, god forbid progress is made and having to drop legacy components of a system is part of that.

I also think it's unfair to say they don't make it universal. What is incompatible between versions - old third party software?

Fair point. This is also the case with Linux. Although I still argue that on Linux it is at least user led rather than a commercial decision.

BillyGoat wrote:Wild sweeping statement again, with no evidence to back it. If I pop round, can you install my laptop with a distro of your choice and make it FULLY work?

I can run a fully working (open office, internet, access to my files, media player etc.) direct from a usb drive on any computer. Or I could install a working distro of your choice on any computer, as long as you're happy for me to format it first – dual boot is a poor choice. As I say, I've done it to at least 6 laptops that would otherwise be landfill by now.

BillyGoat wrote:It's changing market, people will select based on price and there is ever changing technology. For people that leave, there will be people that come back. There was a survey of about how happy and likely it was forthem to purchase the next Apple device - 25% said they would NOT, fair chance they will replace the missing lot that have gone the other way.

We're not talking about Apple devices. Apple make very desirable devices – although a comparison could be made between Windows and itunes, which is awful mainly because of it also attempts to completely dominate the market with underhand methods.

Btw, I stand corrected. I just checked and it seems Windows still has it's hold on the market share (at around 90%). I was quoting anecdotally; everyone I speak to seems to complain about Windows and about how they are going to switch... it seems few do. At least BikerGirl has finally got her arse into gear.

BillyGoat wrote:It was tongue in cheek humour - you obviously need the humour plugin downloading.

Opening a terminal as we speak.

BillyGoat wrote:However, I refer you to my leper comment earlier. If those machines weren't riddled with file sharing apps and illegal software, I'll eat my own pants.

I've noted the leper comment to use as my own at a later date... made me laugh.

Windows handles files in a fundamentally different way to Linux, that is the difference. I don't know what my niece was doing with her laptops before or what she does now, but I know my usage didn't change just because my OS did. The problems on Windows do not happen on Linux, it's as simple as that.






And step away...