Pooneil wrote:I'll let this go after this post, I'm aware I'm starting to sound like some geeky fanboy.
Hope you aren't taking offence, as it's certainly not meant in this way (apologies for blue again, I just can't do it properly tonight, I've STILL got a hangover
BillyGoat wrote:Can't be bothered to spend ages sorting quite tags out, so I'm using blue. I LOVE Windows - it's the right choice for me, it makes me happy. I'm actully very happy and de-stressed. Life is good.
That's great. But do you also understand that others have a very different experience with Windows, and that their complaints are not simply a knee jerk reaction of an anti corporate lynch mob.
There is a mix and I meet them all. Some say it to provoke, some say it because of experience others due to ignorance!
BillyGoat wrote:Hmmm. You know, if an OEM does't want to install Media Player and IE, they don't have too. They also don't have to install Norton (which is obviously third party software - so a poor example on your part). Why do they do it? MONEY. They get PAID to install the software or some other model. They install the tools bars because they get paid. They do demo softwares and homepages because they get paid. They HAVE the option to provide a install without, but why would they take it? The first call from the user would be "why can't I play my CD?". Think the answer "oh, download something - we wanted to give you choice would work well?
But that's the point. Most people buy a computer with the 'most appropriate' 'one size fits all' package pre-installed, but that package isn't necessarily what's best for the user, it is, as you admit, what makes Microsoft most money.
This I object too - taken out of context. Microsoft PROVIDE the software and licencing model and that's it. While there some incentives for OEMs (Dell, HP, Advent, Compaq, etc) to install their products (be it experience or other), it's down to the OEM what they do - not Microsoft.
How could it possibly benefit Microsoft if someone puts a load of crap on there? They having competing products in most cases, or at least software that won't leave the end user with a paid solution. It's the OEM that decides the build - Microsoft have no hand in this, they can't!
From day one your computer is at least quarter 'full' of stuff someone else thinks you should have (because it makes them money). In some instances it might well be stuff you want, often it's not. Norton is a very good example because your 'free 6 month trial' becomes a lifetime advertisement that is impossible to remove – I don't know if this is specifically still the case with Norton, it's been a long time since I used Windows.
I'm not a fan of Symantec antivirus products, but then it depends which segment you are talking about. They do make some great software too. Pre-installations vary a lot, some are sympathetic, some are quite invasive - all down to the OEM what they choose, again, nothing to do with Microsoft.
It's like saying Ferrari made a great car, but because the showroom dealer put pink dice and shaggy mats inside, it's Ferrari's fault it looks crap.
BillyGoat wrote:If Linux was more mainstreme and it was sold in shops readily, do you think it would be such a rosy expereince? Do you not think there would be a ton of software developed to get products sold?
To a certain extent that is already the case. There are a plethora of distributions, each offering different software packages to entice more users. But if the package I opt for comes with Banshee but I prefer rhythmbox I can switch with a couple of clicks, without leaving any corrupt files, without having a Banshee pop-up 'remind' me once a week that I need to update (for a fee) and without the risk that a later system update will contain code to deliberately brake my choice to install rhythembox (because the system makes money from Banshee).
BillyGoat wrote:I think there is some confusion here about the types of systems - you are comparing home installs for the most part with shop brought systems that have been made to make money. I'm sure if you compared a stock system in speed and software, it would fare differently.
Home installed and pre-installed shop bought systems are exactly the same option in Linux. If you're saying the the shop bought MS systems (made to make money) are slower and more bloated than stock systems then that kind of makes my point.
NOW they are. Because the market for shop brought Linux systems is TINY (I'm not even going to search - the only reason it's done, is to get the cost down for distribution, not to provide a great system to the end user). Again, in context I mean "shop brought" being from an OEM, who controls the build - NOT Microsoft.
If I was making a "stock system" or custom build, I'm in control, like you and choose my own configuration.
BillyGoat wrote:And again - where is this defragging every week coming from?
Bitter experience.
To be fair, the main reason people de-frag so often on Windows is because the package is available as a trouble shooter package. In fact there are a whole range of 'fix my crappy computer' packages on Windows... ironically making things even more bloated.
Never used one, they are sh*t and quite often butcher vital parts of the system - but, you can always buy product Y to fix the OTHER damage that it's "found". 
BillyGoat wrote:Do you think the latest version of Windows should still have the option to alt tab to get back to DOS? I mean, god forbid progress is made and having to drop legacy components of a system is part of that.
I also think it's unfair to say they don't make it universal. What is incompatible between versions - old third party software?
Fair point. This is also the case with Linux. Although I still argue that on Linux it is at least user led rather than a commercial decision.
All stuff gets dropped later - it's the question of, do you make a commercial decision and move onwards and upwards, or do you appease the people who want to stick in the past? Onwards and upwards, I say!
BillyGoat wrote:Wild sweeping statement again, with no evidence to back it. If I pop round, can you install my laptop with a distro of your choice and make it FULLY work?
I can run a fully working (open office, internet, access to my files, media player etc.) direct from a usb drive on any computer. Or I could install a working distro of your choice on any computer, as long as you're happy for me to format it first – dual boot is a poor choice. As I say, I've done it to at least 6 laptops that would otherwise be landfill by now.
It would be interesting to see, for sure - even if it was a loaded question. I've just got myself a new toy....but it would have to be FULLY working. It's got dual graphics cards inside (Intel and NVidia) that change on the fly depending on which power mode it's in. It's also got an SSD (read about the basic changes needed to not wreck it, easy) and it's got WiDi built in - to enable wireless 1080p steaming to a TV over wireless. It's got USB3 and some other bits.....all these work?
BillyGoat wrote:It's changing market, people will select based on price and there is ever changing technology. For people that leave, there will be people that come back. There was a survey of about how happy and likely it was forthem to purchase the next Apple device - 25% said they would NOT, fair chance they will replace the missing lot that have gone the other way.
We're not talking about Apple devices. Apple make very desirable devices – although a comparison could be made between Windows and itunes, which is awful mainly because of it also attempts to completely dominate the market with underhand methods.
Btw, I stand corrected. I just checked and it seems Windows still has it's hold on the market share (at around 90%). I was quoting anecdotally; everyone I speak to seems to complain about Windows and about how they are going to switch... it seems few do. At least BikerGirl has finally got her arse into gear.
Hats off to her - I hear it a lot, but rarely SEE it.
BillyGoat wrote:It was tongue in cheek humour - you obviously need the humour plugin downloading.
Opening a terminal as we speak.
BillyGoat wrote:However, I refer you to my leper comment earlier. If those machines weren't riddled with file sharing apps and illegal software, I'll eat my own pants.
I've noted the leper comment to use as my own at a later date... made me laugh.
Windows handles files in a fundamentally different way to Linux, that is the difference. I don't know what my niece was doing with her laptops before or what she does now, but I know my usage didn't change just because my OS did. The problems on Windows do not happen on Linux, it's as simple as that.
I'd hazard a guess as to what she was doing - like most teenagers. Simply why I won't entertain fixing anyones computers anymore (other than family). It's a thankless task and they will go straight back out and download all the same crap.
I can't see who said it earlier, but if there would be a sudden boom of popularity and it came to the masses, I dare say the same malware would be attractive to writers and those that need it. It makes sense.
And step away...
. 
Getting back to the original post...I use AVG free version..and in 2 years it's picked up a "Rootkit" (Whatever that means) 