Need help with Horstmann Economy 7 Quartz

[bishal86]

I've read previous posts on this topic but for the life of me I cannot figure out how to change the time and timer in this thing.

PXL_20211120_115025433.NIGHT.jpg (180.57 KiB) Viewed 2335 times

The instructions say that the outer black dial is supposed to be set for current time and inner white dial sets the on and off times. But I'm not sure how to read it.

I'd really appreciate if someone could help me how to read the dials and how to set them.

Some of my other queries are:

• My main issue is that some days we run out of hot water at the end of the day. Is there any way of knowing how much hot water we've used up?

• How much of the tank gets filled when it operates? If full tank is not getting filled, is there any way I can do that?

Thanks!

[Neelix]

Its probably goosed

You can't monitor how much hot water you use, nor limit how much is heated, other than by using the timer

Your house or rental?

[ericmark]

The instructions show the unit being taken apart to adjust time settings. It is designed to work with off peak power with either one of two immersion heaters. Since the times when off peak is available is fixed there is no reason to alter when it turns on and off.

[bishal86]

Its probably goosed

You can't monitor how much hot water you use, nor limit how much is heated, other than by using the timer

Your house or rental?

Hi it's a rental flat. Any idea how I can change the timer?

[patrick7487]

Hopefully someone can confirm or debunk what I think by looking at the picture.
The Time of day is set by aligning the black dial with either winter or summer (now it would be winter as the clocks went back last month).
If the time is 12 noon, ensure the black dial number 12 is aligned with Winter.
Clock set.

The timer ON and OFF periods are dictated by the White ring. I don't know if White is Off and Clear is ON or vice-versa, a quick way to check is if you know what status the tank is in at a given time (heating or not) and checking whether the dial at "Winter" is white or clear (currently the clear periods are set at 11.30pm til 3.30am then 5am til 9am).

If you are able to remove that dial, you should be able to figure out how to adjust the white/clear areas and tailor your settings to your needs.
On rotary timers I've seen in the past, there are usually dozens of little "fingers" that move in and out from the centre to make up the time periods.

I hope this helps.

[bishal86]

Hopefully someone can confirm or debunk what I think by looking at the picture.
The Time of day is set by aligning the black dial with either winter or summer (now it would be winter as the clocks went back last month).
If the time is 12 noon, ensure the black dial number 12 is aligned with Winter.
Clock set.

The timer ON and OFF periods are dictated by the White ring. I don't know if White is Off and Clear is ON or vice-versa, a quick way to check is if you know what status the tank is in at a given time (heating or not) and checking whether the dial at "Winter" is white or clear (currently the clear periods are set at 11.30pm til 3.30am then 5am til 9am).

If you are able to remove that dial, you should be able to figure out how to adjust the white/clear areas and tailor your settings to your needs.
On rotary timers I've seen in the past, there are usually dozens of little "fingers" that move in and out from the centre to make up the time periods.

I hope this helps.

Thanks for your reply. I think I'm now finally able to read the clock and timer! The pic I posted was taken at 11:50 am. So it looks like the clock is set to the summer time.

And also it looks like the clear part of the white dial is ON as I've never seen it operate during the day. Now I just need to figure out how to change the timer.

Do you happen to know how it operates? I mean during the ON phase, does it fill the entire tank and stop or it fills only to a certain level. I remember reading somewhere that it only fills two thirds or something like that.

[Someone-Else]

Do you happen to know how it operates? I mean during the ON phase, does it fill the entire tank and stop or it fills only to a certain level. I remember reading somewhere that it only fills two thirds or something like that.

Hello bishal86, you appear to be confusing yourself, no worries, allow me.

What you have is called an immersion heater. Somewhere in your place you have a big copper cylinder, maybe covered in solid foam or a jacket, it will be in what is often called the airing cupboard.
This cylinder is always full of water, when you turn on the hot tap or shower, water comes from the pipe at the top of the cylinder and out through what you just turned on. This water is forced out by water entering the bottom of the cylinder. (Hot water floats on cold water)
The whole of the cylinder is heated by an immersion heater, which is somewhere near the middle of the big copper cylinder.
You may also have another heater near the top of the cylinder.
The thing you posted a picture of is the timer that tells the heater when to switch on.
Once the water is heated, and the heater is switched off (by the timer) once all the hot water has been used (it is replaced by cold water, I did say) then you will have no more hot water until the timer tells the heater to come back on OR if you have a "Boost" heater and you turn that on.

[bishal86]

Do you happen to know how it operates? I mean during the ON phase, does it fill the entire tank and stop or it fills only to a certain level. I remember reading somewhere that it only fills two thirds or something like that.

Hello bishal86, you appear to be confusing yourself, no worries, allow me.

What you have is called an immersion heater. Somewhere in your place you have a big copper cylinder, maybe covered in solid foam or a jacket, it will be in what is often called the airing cupboard.
This cylinder is always full of water, when you turn on the hot tap or shower, water comes from the pipe at the top of the cylinder and out through what you just turned on. This water is forced out by water entering the bottom of the cylinder. (Hot water floats on cold water)
The whole of the cylinder is heated by an immersion heater, which is somewhere near the middle of the big copper cylinder.
You may also have another heater near the top of the cylinder.
The thing you posted a picture of is the timer that tells the heater when to switch on.
Once the water is heated, and the heater is switched off (by the timer) once all the hot water has been used (it is replaced by cold water, I did say) then you will have no more hot water until the timer tells the heater to come back on OR if you have a "Boost" heater and you turn that on.

Thank you for the explanation. I think I finally get the entire heating process. So it seems like once I run out of hot water, the only option available is either turn the boost on or wait for the time when the heater turns on.

[Someone-Else]

yep, you got it. (Can you tell I used to be a teacher?)

[bishal86]

yep, you got it. (Can you tell I used to be a teacher?)

And bang on about the multi meter!

[ericmark]

We have many different systems to get domestic hot water from electric, from instant units often using silly amounts of power like 7.5 kW to units which heat a tank from top down, the Willis system. But in mainland UK for many years we have used a 40 gallon container with immersion heaters fitted in it, either one or two either as two units or two built into one. The idea was top of tank only heated normally, but bottom heated when we want a bath, back I think in the 70's maybe 80's we came out with an off peak deal, and the existing system was modified so over night the whole tank was heated, but you could select to just heat top of tank in the day.

We had what was called the White meter and Economy 7.

In the early days you had a completely different fuse box and meter for the off peak power, but then people wanted to use the cheap power for washing machines and the like. So the two supplies were combined, and instead of the whole fuse box switching off in the morning, each unit had it's own timer or relay, the radio 4 time signal switched them over in the main, but in some areas this can't be received, so an accurate quartz clock was used instead.

Scotland still has it seems Economy 7, but in many areas it has gone. However the old equipment remains.

So first thing is find out if you still have Economy 7 or 10 or any other version. If so heating over night is clearly an advantage. If not the timer is a waste of time. I use oil to heat my DHW, and I have no tank thermostat when heating with oil, so in the summer my 18 kW oil boiler turns on for 1/2 hour every other day, and that is enough, it takes so long to heat and cool 40 gallons not worth using a timer.

Unlike oil the electric immersion heater has a thermostat, so may as well simply leave it on, however if two elements then having a switch on the lower element will save power as only need to turn on about 3 hours before you have a bath.

[patrick7487]

As S-E has explained so well, the Immersion heater is what we call a heat exchanger, so the heater elements in the tank transfer heat to the water and the hot water rises to the top. As more of the water heats up (and the area of hot water at the top increases from top-down) a thermostat will reach a pre-set temperature and knock off the power (cos the tank is full of hot water). As long as the Quartz Controller is within a timed period or BOOST is being used, the thermostat will maintain the tank at the pre-set temp.

It seems that the timed periods are fixed so you cannot adjust those, but you can "cheat" the timer by working out when you want the water to be heated and off-setting the clock setting (ie. if you wanted the tank to heat up an hour sooner than current, simply advance the clock one hour).

To gain more control over your hot water availability, I reckon you're looking at a timer module replacement. There are very similar ones to your current controller with the "dozens of fingers" type I alluded to previously. Alternatively there are many types of wired or wireless digital controllers but these must be suited to the type of system you have.

I found a .PDF user guide for that controller you might find useful and attached it to this comment.

[ericmark]

In main land UK in the main the immersion heater goes directly into a 40 gallon tank, either from the top or the side, from the top often a double element immersion heater is used, one element only heats top of tank the other goes deeper, with side entry two independent immersion heaters are often used one near bottom and one near the top again so whole tank is only heated when you want a bath.

The tank takes so long to heat and cool having a timed heat period is only really helpful if you have off peak power, and the timer you show is designed for off peak power.

There is another system however, common in Ulster but not seen much in the rest of UK, the Willis system as small tank is used for the immersion heater

Willis-immersion.jpg (82.74 KiB) Viewed 2246 times

and this is plumbed into the main tank, it allows the water to be heated from the top down, seems mainland plumbers have not worked it out, only the Irish have the skill it seems, but it means time becomes important, the long it is on the further down the tank the water is heated, so 15 minutes for hand wash and 4 hours for a bath.

Unlikely you have Willis and the Economy 7 and Economy 10 systems seem to be some thing of the past except in Scotland. So in the main the immersion heater timer is a thing of the past, but there are some homes still with Economy 7 and Economy 10 systems so first thing is have you got Economy 7 or Economy 10?