Breakfast bar question

[nick200]

Hi all,

First off Happy New Year!

Secondly, I need a bit of advice to do with a breakfast bar that I am fitting. The breakfast bar will be 900mm wide (attached to wall) about 1,900mm long and 40mm deep European oak. Under the breakfast bar worktop will consist of washing machine alongside wall, then two cupboards (800mm and 400mm drawer). The seating area will be behind the cupboards and alongside the washing machine. Where possible I will fix one end of the breakfast bar worktop to the wall either by bracket or I may use a piece of wood secured to the wall for added strength and support. Behind the washing machine I will look at tying in the cupboards to wall, something 600mm long...

Right my concern is movement of the cupboards. I know that the heavy worktop attached to the cupboards and then attached to the wall should be sufficient but can I do anything else? I would fix to the floor but we seem to have a lot of services (and spurious metal) under the floor?!

I will attach two photos, one of the layout and one of the progress so far (please excuse the mess!)

Any other comments always welcome.

[philprime]

The only was to stop any movement is to screw a 2x2 to the floor under the cabinets and fix the cabinets to that

[Colour Republic]

It's hard to tell from the pictures if you've got enough room but your plans show a BEP to the left hand side of the washing machine, Is that still to go in or have you decided to do away with it? Personally i'd make sure that panel goes in.

I would also build some frame work in the void to support where the worktop, even more so because that is the postion of the joint.

Don't worry about fixing the units to the floor, the weight of the units themselves and the worktop is more than enough to hold them in place. However do away with white plastic fixing lugs and replace with stretcher plates.

Make sure you oil the underside of the worktop a couple of times before you fit it. Place biscuits in the joint, butt joint don't masons mitre. fix foil tape to the under of the worktop where the dishwasher is.

Last questions...

Is the corner post a fixed size or have they given you a variable one? i.e. one you cut to size.

Lastly what floor have you got going down? There doesn't seem much room between the top of the washing machine and the underside of the worktop. You may only have lino or similar going down but always a good idea to give more room so the option of tiles or engineered floor is an option in the future. You may already have that sort of room, just hard to tell.

[nick200]

The only was to stop any movement is to screw a 2x2 to the floor under the cabinets and fix the cabinets to that

Thanks Phil, this is what I keep thinking of but as we have heating and water pipes under the floor I was nervous.

[philprime]

Unless you are sure where the pipes run I wouldn't be drilling in to the floor!

But as colour Republic said build a frame to sit behind the void where the washer is and fix to the wall an cabinets

[nick200]

It's hard to tell from the pictures if you've got enough room but your plans show a BEP to the left hand side of the washing machine, Is that still to go in or have you decided to do away with it? Personally i'd make sure that panel goes in.

I would also build some frame work in the void to support where the worktop, even more so because that is the postion of the joint.

Don't worry about fixing the units to the floor, the weight of the units themselves and the worktop is more than enough to hold them in place. However do away with white plastic fixing lugs and replace with stretcher plates.

Make sure you oil the underside of the worktop a couple of times before you fit it. Place biscuits in the joint, butt joint don't masons mitre. fix foil tape to the under of the worktop where the dishwasher is.

Last questions...

Is the corner post a fixed size or have they given you a variable one? i.e. one you cut to size.

Lastly what floor have you got going down? There doesn't seem much room between the top of the washing machine and the underside of the worktop. You may only have lino or similar going down but always a good idea to give more room so the option of tiles or engineered floor is an option in the future. You may already have that sort of room, just hard to tell.

Thanks CR, I was going to try and answer each point individually but not sure if I can do it to your quote?

The end panel is being screwed to the wall now, I wanted it not only for aesthetics but also to support the worktop.

Yes, I am looking into the void area now but I am still in the scratching of head phase! Originally I was going to put a batten along the wall and biscuit the joint but my wife asked what if someone applied pressure on it to get to the windows. Also the weight of the work tops along the joint. I will draw some ideas up.

Yes, someone else said that also. I have found that a couple broke when I turned them, I will remove and get some brackets.

We now have the oil and we will make sure that it has a couple of coats before we fit it. Butt and biscuit was the way that I was thinking, is it worth adding the worktop connector bolts as well? Silver foil is a great idea, I had not thought about that....thanks. The wood has been in the house for a couple of months, will it still shrink/expand much?

I am not sure what you mean about corner post?

The underside of the worktop is around 870mm, maybe a little less around the washing machine. Must be the floor as I have levelled most with a laser but I suppose I could have picked up the odd error!

Thanks

[nick200]

Unless you are sure where the pipes run I wouldn't be drilling in to the floor!

But as colour Republic said build a frame to sit behind the void where the washer is and fix to the wall an cabinets

It makes me very nervous, especially after talking to neighbours about hitting pipes!

I think the frame for the void is a great idea

[joinerjohn]

I'm assuming you're having worktop over the dishwasher etc so there's a run of worktop at right angles to the breakfast bar? Surely these two will also be fixed together and will help prevent movement of the units under the B/bar. Also, the end panels (and back panels) on the units can be gripfilled to the floor (to help prevent any sideways movement)

[nick200]

I'm assuming you're having worktop over the dishwasher etc so there's a run of worktop at right angles to the breakfast bar? Surely these two will also be fixed together and will help prevent movement of the units under the B/bar. Also, the end panels (and back panels) on the units can be gripfilled to the floor (to help prevent any sideways movement)

That's correct JJ, I had removed it from my plan to make the breakfast bar area a bit more visible. Yes, they should add further resistance to movement and I had not thought about it.

I had not thought of that....thanks would you secure it to the concrete or after the floor had been laid (no ideas what the wife wants yet!)

[Colour Republic]

Thanks CR, I was going to try and answer each point individually but not sure if I can do it to your quote?

The end panel is being screwed to the wall now, I wanted it not only for aesthetics but also to support the worktop.
Cool

Yes, I am looking into the void area now but I am still in the scratching of head phase! Originally I was going to put a batten along the wall and biscuit the joint but my wife asked what if someone applied pressure on it to get to the windows. Also the weight of the work tops along the joint. I will draw some ideas up.
I would build 2 ladder frames out of 2x2, the frame doesn't need to be directly under the joint, just near it

Yes, someone else said that also. I have found that a couple broke when I turned them, I will remove and get some brackets.
When you fix the worktop do the screws up hand tight and then loosen the screw by half a turn. If you can use pan heads as opposed to countersunk. You want the oak to be able to naturally move if it expands/contracts without pulling the units out of square.

We now have the oil and we will make sure that it has a couple of coats before we fit it. Butt and biscuit was the way that I was thinking, is it worth adding the worktop connector bolts as well? Silver foil is a great idea, I had not thought about that....thanks. The wood has been in the house for a couple of months, will it still shrink/expand much?
How much the worktops moves will depend on how well oiled it is. Wood will always move but hopefully just a few mm which you wouldn't notice. Yes add some worktop connectors

I am not sure what you mean about corner post?
This is a corner post. You can get them pre-made (normally 40-5mm x 40-5mm) The one in the picure is a variable corner post which I made out of a 150mm door, I mitred it because of the J profile but with slab doors you can just butt joint if you wished. A variable corner post give you more wiggle room to set your unit exactly where you want them rather than being govened by a fixed width one.

one your plan it's the thing circled in red



The underside of the worktop is around 870mm, maybe a little less around the washing machine. Must be the floor as I have levelled most with a laser but I suppose I could have picked up the odd error!
870mm is the perfect height from finished floor, as you don't have a floor down I would have set it to 890mm. Ultimately most freestanding appliance will only go down to 860mm. so it seems you could only ever have a floor covering the is 10mm thick or less with your current set up.

When setting out a kitchen it's always advisable to check floor heights as most will run out here and there. If so then always play attention to the floor height where the appliances will go and make sure you have 870mm from finished floor height in these areas

Thanks

[Colour Republic]

I had not thought of that....thanks would you secure it to the concrete or after the floor had been laid (no ideas what the wife wants yet!)

I really would think about raising those units if you don't know what you want yet as your options will be limited.

You don't have to start again. You can just screw all the units together and slowly raise them as one. I notice you've plumbed in the sink already so make sure you've got some play in the pipe work first.

You've obviously already installed the end panels and cut to size so don't raise it more than you need to. TBH I would choose your floor now before going any further.

[nick200]

I had not thought of that....thanks would you secure it to the concrete or after the floor had been laid (no ideas what the wife wants yet!)

I really would think about raising those units if you don't know what you want yet as your options will be limited.

You don't have to start again. You can just screw all the units together and slowly raise them as one. I notice you've plumbed in the sink already so make sure you've got some play in the pipe work first.

You've obviously already installed the end panels and cut to size so don't raise it more than you need to. TBH I would choose your floor now before going any further.

We originally wanted Karndean which would have apparently taken up 4mm approximately. With our washing machine being 840mm and the underside of the work top being 870mm this was not going to be a problem. However now it may be out of budget and we are starting to look at other options. My wife is speaking to a flooring company tomorrow (a friend of hers) and we shall have to see where we go from there. The end panels I have only secured on for now and understand that I will have to trim them to sit on top of the floor. Also the plumbing has a little play in it with flexi's and also oversized holes.

It seems that after all of my planning and preparation the floor may cause me the biggest headache.... I will continue on the wall units for now then.

With regards to your other post -

The corner posts are separate panels that are screwed together. Only the height is a constant.

I will build two off ladder frames, do I secure them together at the top to make a rectangle?

I will look for pan heads and also remember to tighten and then release a turn.

Thanks for all of your help.

[Colour Republic]

It seems that after all of my planning and preparation the floor may cause me the biggest headache.... I will continue on the wall units for now then.

Kitchens are all about planning and know what you will face right down the line

Before you start on the wall units. do you have any tall larder units in the design? If so these would need to be moved up along with the base units, and as such would throw out the wall unit height. If not then crack on

[Colour Republic]

re: the lader frame, then yes you can fix them together to create a rectangle as such

To be honest if you are putting in an end panel to the left of the WM, then you could just create 1 ladder frame and place it where the pink line is

[nick200]

It seems that after all of my planning and preparation the floor may cause me the biggest headache.... I will continue on the wall units for now then.

Kitchens are all about planning and know what you will face right down the line

Before you start on the wall units. do you have any tall larder units in the design? If so these would need to be moved up along with the base units, and as such would throw out the wall unit height. If not then crack on

Oh yesssssss, I am learning that one! I do enjoy working on the kitchen, planning, making them, thinking outside the box etc. The downside is having to work and be part of a family

Thankfully there are no tall larder units so I cracked on a little and made some drawers and started on decorative bits